2015 WKA Road Race Classes
- Thread starter Gene Davis
- Start date
Mike Stroik
New member
Id say at a track like daytona you might need an extra 100 pounds with a limited lol but midohio 50 might do it....yet again another reason why PG should be in its own class. Tracks vary too much in road racing as how they flow and where certain engines make power...it needs some testing on RR tracks before I give it a thumbs up.
Mike Stroik
Mike Stroik
steve baker
Moderator
This info is already known but here it is again.
Animal Alky - 7 to 8 hours to build and customer cost is $1350.00
Animal Pro Gas - 3 hours to build and customer cost is $895.00
Steve
Animal Alky - 7 to 8 hours to build and customer cost is $1350.00
Animal Pro Gas - 3 hours to build and customer cost is $895.00
Steve
Jamie Webb
New member
I completely agree with 7-8 hours for the Alky build. I don't know that I agree with the 3 hours to build the PG. You still have to unbox it, tear it down, take measurements, prep the cylinder & rings, cut the head, deck the block, add the accessories, dyno it, tune the carb, and double check the lash. That is a lot to do in 3 hours. Steve, are you doing these start to finish in 3 hours?
Jamie Webb
New member
At Daytona, you run 335 and I will go 435 with the LM any day.
I might FINALLY be faster than Mike. LOL.
After seeing these rules that engine will be up to a alky $$ in no time if anyone thinks different they haven't been around racing or are yanking someones chain. Either way I don't care you have to make money doing it meaning engine builders. I just I hate when it's sold it'll be cheaper! gauranteed the guys that tear the alky down after every race will be doing the same to the PG. Say it the way it is they all (engine builders) want another engine to build, nothing wrong with trying to grow a business it's actually intelligent to do so. Just the racer aspect of it is ends up being a low number per class I'm a racer that sucks I don't want to race with 2 guys in a class. And everyone thinks PG will get the numbers I hear everyone talking I'm going to run this class I'm going to run that class. Don't make Daytona the judge for class entry. Lets make Grattan the judge of class entry mmmmm any Woodbridge guys coming any SKC guys coming to Grattan last year Jack, Toland ,Myself,Sheckles,Kilsdonk. Kudos to Sam and James they had a haul to show up. How many PG will show up there? JMO
Denny
Denny
steve baker
Moderator
Jamie,
Yes, S to F in 3 hours. The layout of our shop is set up mainly for Animal builds. Dedicated mills for milling block decks and head decks. The fixtures for these operations are stationary on the mills, we never remove them. It takes us 8 minutes to measure and mill a block deck and about 10 to 12 minutes for heads. If you want pictures of our tooling let me know and I would be glad to e mail them to you. Shop layout for efficiency is very important. Owe yea can't forget this, thanks to Briggs & Stratton for giving us good quality precision consistent parts, that saves us time also. We will be having a shop layout, equipment and tooling ATCC meeting sometime next year. You might want to participate in that meeting.
Steve
Yes, S to F in 3 hours. The layout of our shop is set up mainly for Animal builds. Dedicated mills for milling block decks and head decks. The fixtures for these operations are stationary on the mills, we never remove them. It takes us 8 minutes to measure and mill a block deck and about 10 to 12 minutes for heads. If you want pictures of our tooling let me know and I would be glad to e mail them to you. Shop layout for efficiency is very important. Owe yea can't forget this, thanks to Briggs & Stratton for giving us good quality precision consistent parts, that saves us time also. We will be having a shop layout, equipment and tooling ATCC meeting sometime next year. You might want to participate in that meeting.
Steve
Jamie Webb
New member
I'm getting too old & slow. LOL. You are 100% right about having the right tools in the right place to get it done. I've downsized to everything in one garage and only have a single mill & lathe so setup time would be a lot more than you have. And you are right, B&S has helped us a LOT since the Animals first came out. I promise, I'm going to make one of the meetings. Just so far the stars have not lined up to make it home and get on the call quick enough.
I do have to agree with Dennis also though, when the Animals first started out, I think we all built them quicker than we do now. I do believe the PG will increase in time with more R&D and when more and more builders start building engines for the class. Just the nature of the beast. Happened with flatheads, happened with Animals, DEFINITELY happened with Clones. I just don't see how the PG will be any different. LO206 has been the only engine so far that I have messed with for a couple years and have not had to add any time to building the engine (basically, just getting it race ready with add-ons).
Steve, maybe we will get a chance to hang out at Daytona.
I do have to agree with Dennis also though, when the Animals first started out, I think we all built them quicker than we do now. I do believe the PG will increase in time with more R&D and when more and more builders start building engines for the class. Just the nature of the beast. Happened with flatheads, happened with Animals, DEFINITELY happened with Clones. I just don't see how the PG will be any different. LO206 has been the only engine so far that I have messed with for a couple years and have not had to add any time to building the engine (basically, just getting it race ready with add-ons).
Steve, maybe we will get a chance to hang out at Daytona.
hahahaha, you KNOW you're just talking crazy stuff Dennis, Nice try though.
Bob Vehring
New member
So in other words Steve, you could do exactly the same thing setting up for BP Animal, Cloan or small block chevy if you wanted LOL
BTW I started comparing the differances in the PG/BP Animal cam profiles last night, on the openings I found one degree differance in the range on the open and close numbers. For non engine builders, thats one deg out of 360. Will try to look closer tonight.
My kid has made hie reputation weather its Animals, F200, Limited, or 120's by paying very close attention to every small detail of each and every part and or rule. That's what separates all engines, and makes the fast ones. To be honest were never in a rush to build them and get them out the door. The time difference shows up on the track, not in the shop.
BTW I started comparing the differances in the PG/BP Animal cam profiles last night, on the openings I found one degree differance in the range on the open and close numbers. For non engine builders, thats one deg out of 360. Will try to look closer tonight.
My kid has made hie reputation weather its Animals, F200, Limited, or 120's by paying very close attention to every small detail of each and every part and or rule. That's what separates all engines, and makes the fast ones. To be honest were never in a rush to build them and get them out the door. The time difference shows up on the track, not in the shop.
Jamie Webb
New member
Bob, don't just look at the opening / closing numbers. The cams are NOT similar. The PG cam has a lot more duration.
Steve, do you still have your Datamite setup to profile cams? Can you run a printout of an AN001 or AN002 in comparison to the PG cam?
Steve, do you still have your Datamite setup to profile cams? Can you run a printout of an AN001 or AN002 in comparison to the PG cam?
Bob Vehring
New member
Jamie, I know the cams are different. Awhile back there was a comment about the room within the rules to more or less "play" with the cams and still remain legal. Same thing with carb rules. I'm not looking to compare lift or dur.
BTW did your ph number change, I left you a msg but the number is the ones I had for years
BTW did your ph number change, I left you a msg but the number is the ones I had for years
steve baker
Moderator
Jamie,
Yes, we still have our Datamite setup to profile cams. We have not profiled the Pro Gas cam yet using this tool but could when we get some extra time. The key to the Pro gas cam is not really the cam profile, it’s the fact that WKA set this cam as the only legal camshaft and has an ID stamped on it. The older Animal BP specs just call out a profile window that the cam has to fit into and this opens the door for many optional profiles to be used as long as it still fits the profile window. Do you think the camshaft profile for 2 hole blue plate is different than a profile for unrestricted engine? Big time!!!!!! Properly setting up the camshaft for the Alky engines is the single largest time consuming thing we do in building these engines. Why is that? Because the spec has a profile window only and allows the engine builders with a lot of wiggle area inside this window. I could write a book on the topic of all the different performing camshaft profiles that would fall in the current alky spec cam window.( I'm sure you have heard of cam of the month club ). Having a spec camshaft significantly reduced our labor time in building the Pro Gas engine........thank you WKA............!
Steve
Yes, we still have our Datamite setup to profile cams. We have not profiled the Pro Gas cam yet using this tool but could when we get some extra time. The key to the Pro gas cam is not really the cam profile, it’s the fact that WKA set this cam as the only legal camshaft and has an ID stamped on it. The older Animal BP specs just call out a profile window that the cam has to fit into and this opens the door for many optional profiles to be used as long as it still fits the profile window. Do you think the camshaft profile for 2 hole blue plate is different than a profile for unrestricted engine? Big time!!!!!! Properly setting up the camshaft for the Alky engines is the single largest time consuming thing we do in building these engines. Why is that? Because the spec has a profile window only and allows the engine builders with a lot of wiggle area inside this window. I could write a book on the topic of all the different performing camshaft profiles that would fall in the current alky spec cam window.( I'm sure you have heard of cam of the month club ). Having a spec camshaft significantly reduced our labor time in building the Pro Gas engine........thank you WKA............!
Steve
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rainman
Member
Blew the second day and clones are only OK as long as you keep them stock. After that and once you go over 6,300 or 6,500 rpms they show very weak even using billet rods and other aftermarket parts. Blocks are weak. It wasn´t slow but too much to much time and money invested to make it run properly and still not reliable. I want something I don´t have to work with for Road Racing. Once I hget faster I might just set one of my 2 cycles.
Bob Vehring
New member
Well guys I guess we can keep dancing, the smoke and mirror show if you want, between ph calls, pm's, emails and fb theres really no question that at least most understand what this is. PG is just another engine. Believe it or not, when we started Flatheads were a completely stock engine and promoted as that. So were Animals, F200, and of course cloans. Hell some people believe the Kid Kart Comer is a winning engine right out of the box. Salesmanship is what this sport trives on .
Steve my friend I didn't mean to turn this on you. I know you understand PG is now the forth engine to come into 4 cy RR'ing, each was promoted as being the answer, each had big supporters.someone wrote checks. Because theirs a limited number of 4 cy RR people, what ever is promoted, comes at the expense of the other engine packages before it. I guess WKA doesn't get that, your not walking in with a whole group of current PG racers, your simply causing the existing racers to look at yet one more engine package. Remember when WF (or any other engine) was going to save GC Well GC isn't getting any bigger, the racers just have to keep buying other engines, then they get out because it costs them to much to play the game No one wins.
I'm sure you also know that if this were to take off every builder in the country would drive the work and price up to the level of all the other classes. History proves it, look at fh look at cloan Do you really believe that they won't change the rules on you? I know you talked to a mutual friend last night, ask him, look at history.
I understand you don't have a long history in RR'ing, it took a long time for Animal to get big, but when it did, it was the largest class in NRRS, it was for year. What ended it was the adding of now 3 new engine classes. Many of the people that made it big are gone because their not going to play the engine of the year game. How many engines have come and gone in GC, how much did it grow?
Anyhow I don't think anyone had a problem with PG if it was a stand alone class, hell no one will say it but most know why. the problem is, the damage is done, I know of at least 20 people that are out. WKA probably lost more money then the check was for, they lose, the race loses, we all lose. Thats the problem with this sport.
Steve my friend I didn't mean to turn this on you. I know you understand PG is now the forth engine to come into 4 cy RR'ing, each was promoted as being the answer, each had big supporters.someone wrote checks. Because theirs a limited number of 4 cy RR people, what ever is promoted, comes at the expense of the other engine packages before it. I guess WKA doesn't get that, your not walking in with a whole group of current PG racers, your simply causing the existing racers to look at yet one more engine package. Remember when WF (or any other engine) was going to save GC Well GC isn't getting any bigger, the racers just have to keep buying other engines, then they get out because it costs them to much to play the game No one wins.
I'm sure you also know that if this were to take off every builder in the country would drive the work and price up to the level of all the other classes. History proves it, look at fh look at cloan Do you really believe that they won't change the rules on you? I know you talked to a mutual friend last night, ask him, look at history.
I understand you don't have a long history in RR'ing, it took a long time for Animal to get big, but when it did, it was the largest class in NRRS, it was for year. What ended it was the adding of now 3 new engine classes. Many of the people that made it big are gone because their not going to play the engine of the year game. How many engines have come and gone in GC, how much did it grow?
Anyhow I don't think anyone had a problem with PG if it was a stand alone class, hell no one will say it but most know why. the problem is, the damage is done, I know of at least 20 people that are out. WKA probably lost more money then the check was for, they lose, the race loses, we all lose. Thats the problem with this sport.
Jamie Webb
New member
So you are telling me there is no room at all for this cam to be twisted/tweaked to be better? Every cam will fall right on the "right" numbers. If I'm reading the WKA rules on PG right, there is a 4 degree "window" for the cam to fall into at each lift number, which is the same as the Alky engine. So any "wiggle" room you have on an Alky engine, you will have the same "wiggle" room on the PG camshaft.
As far as I can tell, every check on the cam (lift, duration, running lift, etc) you do on the alky engine, you will still be required to check on the PG engine. But you will also still have to set the lash on the PG engine to the WKA spec which is not a check on the Alky engine.
You "could" just throw the PG cam in the engine and run it, but I doubt anyone is going to do that.
steve baker
Moderator
Jamie,
I am leaving for PRI at 7:00am in the morning and its a 4 hour drive. If you have time in the morning call me about the camshaft and i will explain this all in more detail. Too much typing for all this on her now.
Steve
I am leaving for PRI at 7:00am in the morning and its a 4 hour drive. If you have time in the morning call me about the camshaft and i will explain this all in more detail. Too much typing for all this on her now.
Steve
Bob Vehring
New member
I'm still trying to see if I have time to make the trip, between Van and Steve I guess I'll have to get a Bullet proof vest now