$300 to check a set of valve springs

It actually wasn't the builders that were responsible for the high cost of the box stock engine. It was the tracks that posted big money races that sent the cost of the engine to where it is. If the tracks owners/operators would have sent the money to the BP class there wouldn't be everybody and his brother looking for that extra edge that costs money so you can win money. Would the sanctioning bodies still have a need to put specs on the internal parts to keep the playing field fair. Yes.

"DynoDon" nominated for "Critic Award" of the week for....The Truth!
 
I started this post about an hour ago with a little anger over some of the things that have been spoken. I deleted about 4 paragraphs and went to breakfast simply because I didn't feel very professional about the post. I have listened to those who speak with out much knowledge from research and shoot from the hip just to have something to post. I have listened to those who are in support of their own agenda. Now that I have had time to settle down, I will try it again. I do not think there is anyone in the country who has worked on the spring deal more than I. If so, I apologize for taking sole credit. Lets start from the beginning. No one ever looks back and takes the time to thank those who have given us the opportunity that we currently have using this engine. Everybody wants to bite the hand that feeds them. There wasn't any possible way for the engineers of this engine program to look into the future and foresee the problems that are in existence right now. If so, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No one knew, back in the day, how much evolution this engine was going to go through. It started out as " out of the box". Then the fuel tank was removed due to vibration and breakage. Then the exhaust system was updated to a more performance exhaust because it needed to sound better. Then the air box was restricting performance so along came the aftermarket air filter system. Now, shops are starting to see sales. Fuel tanks, carb adapters, and exhaust systems and mufflers. Next, you have a bunch of guys that want it to sound a little more like a race engine so how about a local track option that will allow a big pipe. Now we sound like a race engine!!! But, we can't turn the rpm we want because we are mushrooming the valves on the stock springs. So, lets make a better spring. Everybody is on board for this. No one to my knowledge has complained. Until there was a recognition that some of the springs were better than others. To my knowledge, ALL organizations were on board when the Spring weight system came about. Everyone was in agreement that we needed a way to control the spring pressure. They tried to use the current " on the market" spring pressure gauges but there was way to much inconsistency between the same two units. Now, I am not sure who in the organization came up with the weight system but everyone was in agreement that it was the way to go. And so it was. It actual was doing it's job of keeping the spring under control for quite some time without controversy. Until there was a new spring on the market that was designed to run a few races or run on the dyno until it came down to the legal pressures required. Now it is in the hands of the builders to make sure that the spring in the engine is legal. It is also in the hands of the supplier to sell a legal spring to the customer. If a small guy, ( DIY'er) can't afford the tester it is his responsibility to inform the seller that he MUST have a set of LEGAL springs because he doesn't have the tooling to check it. Knowing that the weight system is a part of the tech procedure it is the responsibility of the seller or the builder to make sure he has a set of legal springs. How hard is that to understand? So because of negligence on every ones part we should open the spring rule so no one is held responsible for their own mistakes. Sure, lets open the rod rule so we have to spend 60 bucks on a rod just because there were people not responsible for paying attention to the spring rule and they got D.Q.'d. Next , lets allow aftermarket rockers to the tune of 30 dollars because we are turning more RpM and are now breaking them. Oh, and by the way , lets allow a better push rod for 20 dollars because now that we are turning more rpm we are bending them. Shucks, while we are at it we might as well send the engine out to get the cam gear welded so it doesn't slip to the tune of 20 dollars. I worked my but off trying to figure out a way to not use the tooling. Every spring maker I talked with told me that even if we came up with an uninstalled height, they would be able to make a spring that would still turn to many rpm for the stock components. Now that doesn't mean the AKRA isn't going to stop looking for a resolution to the situation because I haven't stopped yet. But, until we find the resolution that will keep the added cost to this engine from happening the weight system is our best friend for now. It is the responsibility of the builder no matter who it is to make sure that the springs are legal to the program they are running under. If you are not competent enough to build the engine around the rules you are working under don't put the blame elsewhere. Quit putting the blame on the equipment that is used to catch your mistake.
Hey Don....'I' don't have ANY problem's with spring's....:) Thanks for your efforts!!
 
Somebody show me an engine that will show up in the future if the clone dies that will not follow the same path.

agreed. I've been in this game for 20 years. I have seen it with the flatheads, I have seen in now with the clones, and next will be the predator (in my opinion). its the nature of the beast. VERY unfortunate...... but true. Someone starts looking for the "edge", and then another "edge, and another, and so on.... and up goes the $$$$$$$$.
 
On the subject of the price, it's just supply and demand, what if you we're a smaller engine builder or even a larger one but you had so many request to fill you can't do them, with demand the price goes up and since this is racing people are always wanting to have the newest motor and simply because of that the price will go up.
 
Thank you Stoney (post#47)! I have been trying too 'post' to that fact but the system hasn't allowed my efforts! I concure completely!!
 
I have not read all the post in this thred but the first few I did read tell me that karters are ready for something new...-ARL- (affordable racing league)....support it, keep it simple and have a claiming rule...karter stand up...soon the clone wars will be over...sorry if I took this thread in a different direction. ..
 
I have not read all the post in this thred but the first few I did read tell me that karters are ready for something new...-ARL- (affordable racing league)....support it, keep it simple and have a claiming rule...karter stand up...soon the clone wars will be over...sorry if I took this thread in a different direction. ..

God Bless Dallas....:)
 
Maybe we need a clone of the dead weight checker for $19.99. My opinion is when the stock air cleaners and weenie pipes were removed this class was doomed. My $.02.
 
I started this post about an hour ago with a little anger over some of the things that have been spoken. I deleted about 4 paragraphs and went to breakfast simply because I didn't feel very professional about the post. I have listened to those who speak with out much knowledge from research and shoot from the hip just to have something to post. I have listened to those who are in support of their own agenda. Now that I have had time to settle down, I will try it again. I do not think there is anyone in the country who has worked on the spring deal more than I. If so, I apologize for taking sole credit. Lets start from the beginning. No one ever looks back and takes the time to thank those who have given us the opportunity that we currently have using this engine. Everybody wants to bite the hand that feeds them. There wasn't any possible way for the engineers of this engine program to look into the future and foresee the problems that are in existence right now. If so, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No one knew, back in the day, how much evolution this engine was going to go through. It started out as " out of the box". Then the fuel tank was removed due to vibration and breakage. Then the exhaust system was updated to a more performance exhaust because it needed to sound better. Then the air box was restricting performance so along came the aftermarket air filter system. Now, shops are starting to see sales. Fuel tanks, carb adapters, and exhaust systems and mufflers. Next, you have a bunch of guys that want it to sound a little more like a race engine so how about a local track option that will allow a big pipe. Now we sound like a race engine!!! But, we can't turn the rpm we want because we are mushrooming the valves on the stock springs. So, lets make a better spring. Everybody is on board for this. No one to my knowledge has complained. Until there was a recognition that some of the springs were better than others. To my knowledge, ALL organizations were on board when the Spring weight system came about. Everyone was in agreement that we needed a way to control the spring pressure. They tried to use the current " on the market" spring pressure gauges but there was way to much inconsistency between the same two units. Now, I am not sure who in the organization came up with the weight system but everyone was in agreement that it was the way to go. And so it was. It actual was doing it's job of keeping the spring under control for quite some time without controversy. Until there was a new spring on the market that was designed to run a few races or run on the dyno until it came down to the legal pressures required. Now it is in the hands of the builders to make sure that the spring in the engine is legal. It is also in the hands of the supplier to sell a legal spring to the customer. If a small guy, ( DIY'er) can't afford the tester it is his responsibility to inform the seller that he MUST have a set of LEGAL springs because he doesn't have the tooling to check it. Knowing that the weight system is a part of the tech procedure it is the responsibility of the seller or the builder to make sure he has a set of legal springs. How hard is that to understand? So because of negligence on every ones part we should open the spring rule so no one is held responsible for their own mistakes. Sure, lets open the rod rule so we have to spend 60 bucks on a rod just because there were people not responsible for paying attention to the spring rule and they got D.Q.'d. Next , lets allow aftermarket rockers to the tune of 30 dollars because we are turning more RpM and are now breaking them. Oh, and by the way , lets allow a better push rod for 20 dollars because now that we are turning more rpm we are bending them. Shucks, while we are at it we might as well send the engine out to get the cam gear welded so it doesn't slip to the tune of 20 dollars. I worked my but off trying to figure out a way to not use the tooling. Every spring maker I talked with told me that even if we came up with an uninstalled height, they would be able to make a spring that would still turn to many rpm for the stock components. Now that doesn't mean the AKRA isn't going to stop looking for a resolution to the situation because I haven't stopped yet. But, until we find the resolution that will keep the added cost to this engine from happening the weight system is our best friend for now. It is the responsibility of the builder no matter who it is to make sure that the springs are legal to the program they are running under. If you are not competent enough to build the engine around the rules you are working under don't put the blame elsewhere. Quit putting the blame on the equipment that is used to catch your mistake.


I agree 100% Don, and while im thinking of it, thank you for everything you have done to try and make this class as fair and level as you could, i appreciate your effort and the time you have taken to do what you have done. Not many people are willing or able to fill your shoes if given the chance, whether they believe it or not. I admire your determination, even if i am the only one who does.
 
Maybe we need a clone of the dead weight checker for $19.99. My opinion is when the stock air cleaners and weenie pipes were removed this class was doomed. My $.02.

Believe it or not, there are actually alot of tracks around Ky that still run true Box Stock classes, with weinie pipe and stock air filter, shoe clutch, steel flywheel and stock timing. J&M Motorsports is one of them, and their box stock classes are the biggest fields we have, there really are no AKRA Clone or Pro Clone races there anymore, very rarely do you see anyone bring a Pro Clone to this track. It is a perfect example of close racing that brings it all down to the driver, tires and chassis setup.
 
You prove to me that the 44 race event engine is still a winner amongst other animals that are fresh. Now that there to me is funny.

And a 44 race clone would still be competitive? I happen to agree with fivepntr when he said:
Heck--you won't get 44 races out of a Clone without having to carry it back to the builder because of a rule change!

You ask me to prove that a 44 race event animal is still a winner against fresh animals -- yet I never claimed it was. Likewise, can you prove that a 44 race event clone is still a winner against fresh clones? The fact that an animal engine LASTS 44 races is a testimony to that engine platform.

Next you want fivepntr to prove his point. I don't think he has to either...Just ask all the clone racers how many races they got out of their clone before a rule change occurred or it was needing a "update." Even if a racer ran twice a week for 22 weeks (and that's a LOT for most guys), that's a full season for most tracjs! No changes all year? There's your answer. Why is it that we (or anyone) owes you an answer? Your signature states that you are not seeking any awards. We are entitled to our opinions just the same as you.

Face it, the clone engine self imploded due to a complete lack of rules from the beginning and all the current (and future) changes to those rules are not going to save it. It has gone the way of the flathead in the course of about 5 years or so! Spend a grand or more and get you some real power. You can be pretty sure it won't live 44 races...even with changing those wonderful "trick" 10.8# springs every other race!
 
And a 44 race clone would still be competitive? I happen to agree with fivepntr when he said:


You ask me to prove that a 44 race event animal is still a winner against fresh animals -- yet I never claimed it was. Likewise, can you prove that a 44 race event clone is still a winner against fresh clones? The fact that an animal engine LASTS 44 races is a testimony to that engine platform.

Next you want fivepntr to prove his point. I don't think he has to either...Just ask all the clone racers how many races they got out of their clone before a rule change occurred or it was needing a "update." Even if a racer ran twice a week for 22 weeks (and that's a LOT for most guys), that's a full season for most tracjs! No changes all year? There's your answer. Why is it that we (or anyone) owes you an answer? Your signature states that you are not seeking any awards. We are entitled to our opinions just the same as you.

Face it, the clone engine self imploded due to a complete lack of rules from the beginning and all the current (and future) changes to those rules are not going to save it. It has gone the way of the flathead in the course of about 5 years or so! Spend a grand or more and get you some real power. You can be pretty sure it won't live 44 races...even with changing those wonderful "trick" 10.8# springs every other race!
I think you have things a little twisted. I do not recall saying a clone with 44 races would still win against other clones that were fresh. that without a doubt be a dumb statement for a person like me to say. It is obvious you wish to argue the fact that the animal is better and that is a right you have here on Bob's. So have at it, the floor is yours. You would probably get more people to agree with you and discuss things in a more positive way if you went back to the animal forum where you most generally hang out.
 
Don, I had a clone. DIY, had a local get the engine assembled and it was decent. Ended up with $1000 in it or more when I got rid of it in NOV. I didn't even race it ALL THIS YEAR. Just last year 2012. I done all the upgrades, pipe, carb and flywheel all that jazz.

You said everyone was happy with all the changes and such, but there was always complaining? How is that happy? I ended up running my Animal more last year because my DIY engine still wasn't all that good. Had a big name used animal and after a rebuild still had less in it than the clone. Ran it almost all season before it had to be refreshed, never needed to be changed for rules. I started back two years ago after racing my whole childhood. The clone is 10x worse than the flathead. Cost the same, and still back and forth on rules. This thing is crap!

Everyone wants to be different, I understand but when you have a platform that works, and we already know no engine will stay cheap. Why not stick with what you already have unless you'll stick to the rules? Which animals and 206 does.

Our local tech man said he didn't like the 206 because there was no leeway in tech. When it's illegal, it's illegal. Sounds pretty cut and dry to me, same with animal and flathead. When they're out they're out, pack it in a box and go home! Clones have more drama than racing. Wish everyone would get their head out of their ass and realize they aren't almost like flatheads and animals. THEY ALREADY ARE. Spend the same money and get a better platform and quite the whining, go race!

It's sad all the animals have dried up for the most part here. The flathead class and animals were the fastest through tech and had less drama all around. We raced, packed up and was done. But, everyone is abandoning these classes for drama filled episodes in the tech area with the clone. Makes no sense to me.

Ps, since I probably won't have a real class to race with I built an open wedge kart. I can run it and there is no moaning and tech afterwards.
 
I hear what you are saying and there are probably many like you that have the same story. A true story at that!! But, keep in mind that the clone is still in a stage of finalization. The animal and the 206 are already finalized. We clone racers are aware of the fact that there are issues and that we need to get them resolved. Many of us are willing to wait out the problems until they do get resolved. Yes, there will be a peak on cost. Just like the cost of the animal and the 206. Thing is, most of us clone racers like to build engines and we like to take the side cover off and disassemble and repair and reassemble. That is our thing!!! We like to do that!!! The animal is difficult to build by the average DIY'er. The 206 can't be touched due to sealing. These are my very first statements about the other racing engines on the market as I have never addressed this issue before due to respect for those who have made their choice. For us cloners who like to tinker, we will wait it out and I am sure the wait will be well worth it. Do not take this next statement personally. It is directed at all who have voiced their opinions about moving to another engine package. I do not see us cloners coming on someones thread and pushing the clone like the animal and 206 people do to us. We respect the fact that you have chosen an engine package that you are satisfied with and wish those of you well. And I am sure that there will be some clone racers who will leave and come to the other engine packages. But that is their choice. We live in a world where choice is free. I haven't got frustrated to the point where I just want to throw my hands in the air and say the heck with it. Mainly because I see a good thing here in the future. The changes we are making are two fold. One, to keep cost down, and two is to make it continue to be easy for the DIY"er to be competitive. I think if you look at history, you will see that it is made up of racers who like to do things themselves. That is what we are all about with this engine. Those who can't will purchase from someone who can. Those who have purchased are the ones who currently want to race the clone. If at any time they do not like the clone any more they have a choice. Many of you continue to advertise that. I think the numbers across the country speak for them selves. Will those numbers continue? I don't know. It will depend on how long it takes us to get things 100% under control. One thing is for sure, there are a bunch of us!!!!
 
You said yourself, they're putting money in the clones. That's the main reason they're running them not cost.

Tinkering was the same with the flathead, animal is the same as clone. Make the horsepower in the head. So the fact the rules aren't set in stone for the clone is the only way you can "tinker." Anyone can pop the side cover off an animal or clone. We all know most of the power is in the head. It's not about freshening up an engine. It's about the initial build, machining and everything.

Once that's done just like the flathead, joe down the street can make a name "building" a good motor as long as he has the right platform to build from. Ie, someone done the hard work for him. Most people here I the south run a name brand motor, so the DIY thing for the clone got threw out the window a long time ago in my opinion. Just like the cheap thing, people just can't admit it to themselves.

Also, the majority of clone racers that want the cheap engines were happier with the box stock. The rest just wanted to race but got railed with this cheaper race engine crap.
 
Don, I had a clone. DIY, had a local get the engine assembled and it was decent. Ended up with $1000 in it or more when I got rid of it in NOV. I didn't even race it ALL THIS YEAR. Just last year 2012. I done all the upgrades, pipe, carb and flywheel all that jazz.

You said everyone was happy with all the changes and such, but there was always complaining? How is that happy? I ended up running my Animal more last year because my DIY engine still wasn't all that good. Had a big name used animal and after a rebuild still had less in it than the clone. Ran it almost all season before it had to be refreshed, never needed to be changed for rules. I started back two years ago after racing my whole childhood. The clone is 10x worse than the flathead. Cost the same, and still back and forth on rules. This thing is crap!

Everyone wants to be different, I understand but when you have a platform that works, and we already know no engine will stay cheap. Why not stick with what you already have unless you'll stick to the rules? Which animals and 206 does.

Our local tech man said he didn't like the 206 because there was no leeway in tech. When it's illegal, it's illegal. Sounds pretty cut and dry to me, same with animal and flathead. When they're out they're out, pack it in a box and go home! Clones have more drama than racing. Wish everyone would get their head out of their ass and realize they aren't almost like flatheads and animals. THEY ALREADY ARE. Spend the same money and get a better platform and quite the whining, go race!

It's sad all the animals have dried up for the most part here. The flathead class and animals were the fastest through tech and had less drama all around. We raced, packed up and was done. But, everyone is abandoning these classes for drama filled episodes in the tech area with the clone. Makes no sense to me.

Ps, since I probably won't have a real class to race with I built an open wedge kart. I can run it and there is no moaning and tech afterwards.
Let's face it....NASCAR "creates" controversy just to 'try' too keep things interesting!
 
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