$300 to check a set of valve springs
- Thread starter Matt78
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sCREamnClones
New member
Just curious....If ur not a 'Cloner', what is ur concern? It sounds like ur jst mad at urself for making a mistake! Get over it and move on. There are 'enough' of 'us' on here that have legitimate complains/issue's....thank you and have a 'better' day
ABR #69
Member
My concern and issue is that all the real classes and dried up because everyone got lured into this engine. I choose not to participate in it, but almost have no alternative since the fate of these other classes are being decided by racers being swayed by smoke and mirrors.
As I said I'm almost left traveling to race open and occasionally at my local track if some people actually follow through with what they've said they will do. But, I just hate that these other classes that are established and not full of BS every time you turn around is going away in favor of something most don't seem happy with.
Anyway, sorry to take up your bandwidth for real concerns and issues. I'll just leave it at that.
As I said I'm almost left traveling to race open and occasionally at my local track if some people actually follow through with what they've said they will do. But, I just hate that these other classes that are established and not full of BS every time you turn around is going away in favor of something most don't seem happy with.
Anyway, sorry to take up your bandwidth for real concerns and issues. I'll just leave it at that.
sCREamnClones
New member
Can't say I dis-agree from my 'local' stand-point with you. Unfortunitely, all the 'rules' making is looked too be from a 'national' level of which is a oxymoron reality in itself....(NOT intended 2B negative) But, that is WHY every BODY has their own variation of the 'RULES'. Good Luck and Hang-on!
“A candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long!”
Scream--It is far fetched! I would be reluctant to buy an engine that will go 44 races without a refresh--can't see it being built for speed (if that is what you were meaning by far fetched). My point/frustration as a CUSTOMER was made to the "Baskin Robbins" 31 flavor Clone package that we spend our hard earned money on. Between all the different components that come out on a regular basis and the never ending rule changes--it's difficult to keep up--and it's especially true if your not a builder.
JMO
and BTW--Merry Christmas to you all!
Scream--It is far fetched! I would be reluctant to buy an engine that will go 44 races without a refresh--can't see it being built for speed (if that is what you were meaning by far fetched). My point/frustration as a CUSTOMER was made to the "Baskin Robbins" 31 flavor Clone package that we spend our hard earned money on. Between all the different components that come out on a regular basis and the never ending rule changes--it's difficult to keep up--and it's especially true if your not a builder.
JMO
and BTW--Merry Christmas to you all!
dee paschal
New member
so is it still safe to say racers abandoning WKA was the right move?
sCREamnClones
New member
I'm not a WKA rooter, but...i don't see the Clone rules being in their control...although they obviously endorse them. Really...it's not as bad as it all sounds and it's just that 'everyBODY' needs too get on the same page!so is it still safe to say racers abandoning WKA was the right move?
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Don (and others),
This is a general karting thread -- it is NOT in the clone section. Why do you tell me (or anyone) to "go back to the animal section where you post?" Why the hostility towards me or anyone else on here? This is a great place for social interaction -- we don't need the drama. I am not attacking you or anyone that promotes the clone engine package. Please don't take this as such. I don't post in the clone forums, only on a rare occasion and typically when a question is asked. I am not selling anything in this thread. My sales posts are made in the appropriate categories of the classifieds section and business ads section. Keep in mind that I am an engine builder and need to stay on top of what's going on in the clone world and ever changing clone rules as well. I don't just stick my head in the sand and hope for the best. I look at ALL engine packages and their viability. My point is, that the current clone deal is a mess. All the fixing isn't going to save it (in my opinion.) JUST MY OPINION! I am entitled to that just as many other people are. As soon as the rules get ironed out, the next batch of imports show up with parts that don't meet the rules, either due to poor manufacturing tolerances or by design. It's a never ending cycle unless you can control (at least to a point) the manufacturers themselves. That's why the Briggs package keeps coming up -- it's purpose built for racing (sharing some design with the industrial engine line) and it's tolerances are kept much tighter due to this and so much more. FWIW, I could have told you that the LO206 can win with 44 races on it....Some are still going strong after 4 years - they just keep on running strong. That wasn't my point however - I think you totally missed it when you took a few posters' comments as a personal attack on you or the clone in general. Remember, the OP of this thread (in the general forums remember) is frustrated with the $300 price tag on the clone spring tech tool that is still open to interpretation (flashlight, feelers gauge, etc when used.) No measuring device is perfect (especially when you introduce user error) but it's stone age technology when you look at decent digital spring gauges that are on the market for not much more. There's a couple nice Intercomps in the misc classifieds right now! The benefit of a digital spring gauge is that you get an actual number for spring pressure at a specific height. Furthermore, as the additional check (s) are instituted, it doesn't result in having to "update" your current tech tool -- simply check at whatever height is called for in the tech manual. Most, if not all, engine builders already own these tools and are the ones doing the tech. Is it a cure-all fix? Absolutely not -- I still see guys "blue thumb" a pair of calipers or mics and get false readings.
For what it's worth, I totally agree with you that karting has always been for tinkerers. That's awesome! That's how I got started in karting 40 years ago and have had a full time business in this industry for the past 25 years. Few people can say that they've made a career out of something that they truly love. I have two young boys racing karts now, and I want to be sure we have something left to hand down to them. I just don't think it'll ever be a clone engine the way things have been handled. Again, just my opinion - don't let your feelings get hurt by that.
Merry Christmas indeed!
This is a general karting thread -- it is NOT in the clone section. Why do you tell me (or anyone) to "go back to the animal section where you post?" Why the hostility towards me or anyone else on here? This is a great place for social interaction -- we don't need the drama. I am not attacking you or anyone that promotes the clone engine package. Please don't take this as such. I don't post in the clone forums, only on a rare occasion and typically when a question is asked. I am not selling anything in this thread. My sales posts are made in the appropriate categories of the classifieds section and business ads section. Keep in mind that I am an engine builder and need to stay on top of what's going on in the clone world and ever changing clone rules as well. I don't just stick my head in the sand and hope for the best. I look at ALL engine packages and their viability. My point is, that the current clone deal is a mess. All the fixing isn't going to save it (in my opinion.) JUST MY OPINION! I am entitled to that just as many other people are. As soon as the rules get ironed out, the next batch of imports show up with parts that don't meet the rules, either due to poor manufacturing tolerances or by design. It's a never ending cycle unless you can control (at least to a point) the manufacturers themselves. That's why the Briggs package keeps coming up -- it's purpose built for racing (sharing some design with the industrial engine line) and it's tolerances are kept much tighter due to this and so much more. FWIW, I could have told you that the LO206 can win with 44 races on it....Some are still going strong after 4 years - they just keep on running strong. That wasn't my point however - I think you totally missed it when you took a few posters' comments as a personal attack on you or the clone in general. Remember, the OP of this thread (in the general forums remember) is frustrated with the $300 price tag on the clone spring tech tool that is still open to interpretation (flashlight, feelers gauge, etc when used.) No measuring device is perfect (especially when you introduce user error) but it's stone age technology when you look at decent digital spring gauges that are on the market for not much more. There's a couple nice Intercomps in the misc classifieds right now! The benefit of a digital spring gauge is that you get an actual number for spring pressure at a specific height. Furthermore, as the additional check (s) are instituted, it doesn't result in having to "update" your current tech tool -- simply check at whatever height is called for in the tech manual. Most, if not all, engine builders already own these tools and are the ones doing the tech. Is it a cure-all fix? Absolutely not -- I still see guys "blue thumb" a pair of calipers or mics and get false readings.
For what it's worth, I totally agree with you that karting has always been for tinkerers. That's awesome! That's how I got started in karting 40 years ago and have had a full time business in this industry for the past 25 years. Few people can say that they've made a career out of something that they truly love. I have two young boys racing karts now, and I want to be sure we have something left to hand down to them. I just don't think it'll ever be a clone engine the way things have been handled. Again, just my opinion - don't let your feelings get hurt by that.
Merry Christmas indeed!
sCREamnClones
New member
'Agree' and...."I" am Not touching that!!
dee paschal
New member
who's in control of rules?
rebsfan4
Member
I don't understand the complexity issue of using the dead weight spring tool. There are no flashlights needed. There are no feelers gauges needed. It's very simple if kept that way. If the weight is off either collar at either height then you WILL hear and feel it when you apply pressure to the weight. It WILL make a metallic clicking noise from the weight making contact with the collar in use. If there is NO space then that means the dead weight is in contact with the collar in use. That in turn means you will not hear the noise nor feel the two surfaces making contact. It does not have to make contact around the entire 360 circumference of the collar in use at the time. It only needs to be in contact at SOME point so as to not have an open space between the weight itself and the collar. This is where flashlights and feelers gauges create a problem and the very reason they should not be used IMO.
C&L_MOTORSPORTS
New member
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12-12-2013 10:00 AM
#28
DynoDon
DynoDon is offline
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Join Date:Oct 2013Location:Watsontown, Pa. 17777Posts:253
I started this post about an hour ago with a little anger over some of the things that have been spoken. I deleted about 4 paragraphs and went to breakfast simply because I didn't feel very professional about the post. I have listened to those who speak with out much knowledge from research and shoot from the hip just to have something to post. I have listened to those who are in support of their own agenda. Now that I have had time to settle down, I will try it again. I do not think there is anyone in the country who has worked on the spring deal more than I. If so, I apologize for taking sole credit. Lets start from the beginning. No one ever looks back and takes the time to thank those who have given us the opportunity that we currently have using this engine. Everybody wants to bite the hand that feeds them. There wasn't any possible way for the engineers of this engine program to look into the future and foresee the problems that are in existence right now. If so, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No one knew, back in the day, how much evolution this engine was going to go through. It started out as " out of the box". Then the fuel tank was removed due to vibration and breakage. Then the exhaust system was updated to a more performance exhaust because it needed to sound better. Then the air box was restricting performance so along came the aftermarket air filter system. Now, shops are starting to see sales. Fuel tanks, carb adapters, and exhaust systems and mufflers. Next, you have a bunch of guys that want it to sound a little more like a race engine so how about a local track option that will allow a big pipe. Now we sound like a race engine!!! But, we can't turn the rpm we want because we are mushrooming the valves on the stock springs. So, lets make a better spring. Everybody is on board for this. No one to my knowledge has complained.
So Don who do we thank for bringing this engine to race. Not the AKRA, you better think about where it began. Harbor Freight. Jimmy Anderson ran these motors 7-8 years ago BOX STOCK. I ran them at my track for 2 years before the AKRA got involved then its been all down hill since. I'd buy a box of paper filters from Dover for a dollar each. Builders down south didn't want any part of it because there was no money in it for them. Now your lucky to find one who can sell a flathead. They went where the money is, and now their making money. A spring gage costs as much as a set of tires. now where do you think joe racers gonna spend his money. I just bought 2 WKA legal animals, one i'm building a mod out of and i'll have a little if any more in it than buying 2 national clones. less rules, more HP and less BS. I still have clones one I was finishing up in Dec. but I
doubt i'll ever pull a rope on. I'll put them under the bench with the rest of the clone springs, retainers and parts I can't use because of all of the rules. Merry Christmas!!! or Bah Humbug!!
12-12-2013 10:00 AM
#28
DynoDon
DynoDon is offline
Senior Member
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Join Date:Oct 2013Location:Watsontown, Pa. 17777Posts:253
I started this post about an hour ago with a little anger over some of the things that have been spoken. I deleted about 4 paragraphs and went to breakfast simply because I didn't feel very professional about the post. I have listened to those who speak with out much knowledge from research and shoot from the hip just to have something to post. I have listened to those who are in support of their own agenda. Now that I have had time to settle down, I will try it again. I do not think there is anyone in the country who has worked on the spring deal more than I. If so, I apologize for taking sole credit. Lets start from the beginning. No one ever looks back and takes the time to thank those who have given us the opportunity that we currently have using this engine. Everybody wants to bite the hand that feeds them. There wasn't any possible way for the engineers of this engine program to look into the future and foresee the problems that are in existence right now. If so, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No one knew, back in the day, how much evolution this engine was going to go through. It started out as " out of the box". Then the fuel tank was removed due to vibration and breakage. Then the exhaust system was updated to a more performance exhaust because it needed to sound better. Then the air box was restricting performance so along came the aftermarket air filter system. Now, shops are starting to see sales. Fuel tanks, carb adapters, and exhaust systems and mufflers. Next, you have a bunch of guys that want it to sound a little more like a race engine so how about a local track option that will allow a big pipe. Now we sound like a race engine!!! But, we can't turn the rpm we want because we are mushrooming the valves on the stock springs. So, lets make a better spring. Everybody is on board for this. No one to my knowledge has complained.
So Don who do we thank for bringing this engine to race. Not the AKRA, you better think about where it began. Harbor Freight. Jimmy Anderson ran these motors 7-8 years ago BOX STOCK. I ran them at my track for 2 years before the AKRA got involved then its been all down hill since. I'd buy a box of paper filters from Dover for a dollar each. Builders down south didn't want any part of it because there was no money in it for them. Now your lucky to find one who can sell a flathead. They went where the money is, and now their making money. A spring gage costs as much as a set of tires. now where do you think joe racers gonna spend his money. I just bought 2 WKA legal animals, one i'm building a mod out of and i'll have a little if any more in it than buying 2 national clones. less rules, more HP and less BS. I still have clones one I was finishing up in Dec. but I
doubt i'll ever pull a rope on. I'll put them under the bench with the rest of the clone springs, retainers and parts I can't use because of all of the rules. Merry Christmas!!! or Bah Humbug!!
Last edited:
mikeincoppell
New member
Reading this thread makes me more and more happy to have moved away from clone motors. LOL But seriously, I didn't move away because of rules but it is fun to keep up with them while not having to worry about complying. I've always felt that with a base component that is produced by multiple Chinese manufacturers to varying standards it is nothing but an uphill battle to contain racers (and builders) always looking for an edge. I do agree that trying to limit the clone with valve springs is lunacy. If I were the rule czar, and it's probably a very good thing I'm not, I would make it as simple as possible.
#1 rule, safety first. Billet flywheels required, billet rods optional, remote mounted fuel tanks, etc.
Rule #2 Displacement. Whether it's by bore & stroke or some other method doesn't really matter, just limit the motor size to <200 CC
Rule #3 CC rule as it currently stands.
Rule #4 Weenie pipe exhaust to current rules (personally I hated the weenie pipe but it is a great restrictor and caused fewer burns on my arm).
Rule #5 Restrict the carburetor, preferably with a restrictor plate.
Rule #6 Maximum jet size
Rule #7 Pump gas at 87 octane maximum (our track specifies where it has to be purchased and compares)
If a motor can't breathe on either end and you can't squeeze it real tight in the combustion chamber the power and RPM are limited by the laws of physics. You can port & polish, play with springs, high dollar pistons, etc to your hearts content but the gains if any are going to be nil to negligible at best. Now I realize you clone racers feel like .001 HP makes or breaks you in a race but really?
Tech becomes a quick and simple process requiring minimal tools and talent. Anyone could tech their own motors in 10 minutes.
You could even go one step further with sealed carburetors from approved builders if you wanted to.
Or sealed motors I know, I brought this up on the old forum and sealed motors won't work for clones, only for just about every other form of motorsports. Clones are special.
#1 rule, safety first. Billet flywheels required, billet rods optional, remote mounted fuel tanks, etc.
Rule #2 Displacement. Whether it's by bore & stroke or some other method doesn't really matter, just limit the motor size to <200 CC
Rule #3 CC rule as it currently stands.
Rule #4 Weenie pipe exhaust to current rules (personally I hated the weenie pipe but it is a great restrictor and caused fewer burns on my arm).
Rule #5 Restrict the carburetor, preferably with a restrictor plate.
Rule #6 Maximum jet size
Rule #7 Pump gas at 87 octane maximum (our track specifies where it has to be purchased and compares)
If a motor can't breathe on either end and you can't squeeze it real tight in the combustion chamber the power and RPM are limited by the laws of physics. You can port & polish, play with springs, high dollar pistons, etc to your hearts content but the gains if any are going to be nil to negligible at best. Now I realize you clone racers feel like .001 HP makes or breaks you in a race but really?
Tech becomes a quick and simple process requiring minimal tools and talent. Anyone could tech their own motors in 10 minutes.
You could even go one step further with sealed carburetors from approved builders if you wanted to.
Or sealed motors
I know, I brought this up on the old forum and sealed motors won't work for clones, only for just about every other form of motorsports. Clones are special.