301's and 420's

jibco520

Member
I've looked quite a bit and I'm trying to find main differences between them,. Also the differences in the 420 models - are there any that matter much? Looking for a project motor I guess - not sure what I'll put it on. So far it SEEMS that a 301 is a de-stroked, de-bored 420 with maybe a different head?
 

WinstonSmith

New member
What brand or manufacturer is the 301cc?

Good question:

I would say its in the range of the 240 and 270, " not very big blocks ".
I never took one down but there is also a 257 in the family.

It might be a different stroke that's where I think you will find the 301 and the 257 came from.

I keep hearing the word Predator.
Thats just a store brand by harbour freight.
There are many other store brands that use these engines and many different manufacturers.
Maybe you want to ask MTD or General lawn products where these engines come from, who asked for them or if they are something they asked for.
While your at it where is the 223 coming from?
Who asked for that and why does not one talk about it....

Chinese folks have this thing about appreciating a good copy.
Its considered OK in China to make a copy of something if you do it justice or do it better.
SO making a bigger version of something familiar might be better don't you think.....

Look at if from that perspective.......

Also.
Cloning engines is an old habit that goes back a very long time.
Its been the habit of the cloners to try and one up the OEM by making a better clone.
India produces engines descended from Petter, Lister and Villiers designs to this day that still look like the originals but are often very different inside.

This looks like a 60 year old Villliers MK12 but cast in aluminum with a Honda Inspired fuel tank.
https://koelagri.com/product/kpk-n-2520/

Here is a very broad spectrum of engines that are all very much like Petter and son's AV series from the 40s but they are not....
http://vibhaexports.com/diesel_pumpsets.htm

So how do you decide where a clone begins and the OEM design ends?
I don't know.
Is this a Duetz, a Kubota how can you be sure who should be credited with this iteration of a design?
https://www.kubota.com.au/product/rt125/

There was a time when companies made a product formost for the US market ( the biggest ) the rest of the world got an design adapted to there local needs from that template.
Words like " Kohler world wide " used to be stamped on engines... remember that?
Well now there are bigger and bigger markets than that and fewer and fewer people outside the USA are familiar with US brands anymore.
A 301 big block Honda clone might be something designed for Indonesia or Chinese home markets adapted to our snowblowers and generators.
And most certainly there are many companies involved in cloning the clones....
 

Kart43

Member
I realize that, and it amuses me that some feel the Predator is a manufacturers brand. It is simply a store brand, the engines on the shelf today can be different as soon as that stock is gone because a buyer gets a better deal. So ABC is no longer making Predators but XYZ is now making them.
 

WinstonSmith

New member
There was a time when you picked a good store brand you knew what you had was top of the line.
Kenmore is an example.
Often contracts were awarded to build Kenmore with exclusive new features.
Being a store brand could be a badge of honor.

Viking in Canada was another.
You got some of the best appliances and even outboards and lawnmowers.
They were not cheap and the Eaton's service man ( not the manufacturer ) came to your home to honour your warranty.
Maybe with a big of luck we can get back to those days if we can avoid shopping in the junk bins.

You have to ask for premium to get it and you need to be prepared to pay a premium of it.
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
I've looked quite a bit and I'm trying to find main differences between them,. Also the differences in the 420 models - are there any that matter much? Looking for a project motor I guess - not sure what I'll put it on. So far it SEEMS that a 301 is a de-stroked, de-bored 420 with maybe a different head?

Pick one in your price range , that's about all you can do .
There sutile differences in them all .
With out differences then they have copyright trouble:)
 

WinstonSmith

New member
With out differences then they have copyright trouble:)

No.
You have patent issues copyright is for the written word ( and a stretch of imagination source code in computing )

You can make prefect copies of Honda products if you like as long as you do not copy " new and real "patent protected technology ( and there is not a lot of that these days on this kind of stuff, or even stuff in general... Don't get me started on this because there is a lot of stuff protected under patent that is total BS like pharma or electronics with no basis in reality... )
If there is anything new under the sun its probably in the IGX engines.
 

Brian B.

New member
I've looked quite a bit and I'm trying to find main differences between them,. Also the differences in the 420 models - are there any that matter much? Looking for a project motor I guess - not sure what I'll put it on. So far it SEEMS that a 301 is a de-stroked, de-bored 420 with maybe a different head?

The 301 is Loncin’s GX270 clone& has no reason to exist.

Look at the Duromax 18hp, it has the same 92mm bore and 10bolt side cover block as the VC460 if you have your mind set on looking at non VC460 platforms.

The 301 is an odd duck, stay away (the 301 just like the GX270 is a completely different block than the 420,.. crank journals are different size than the GX390/420/440/460 family)
 

WinstonSmith

New member
The 301 is Loncin’s GX270 clone& has no reason to exist.

The 301 is an odd duck, stay away (the 301 just like the GX270 is a completely different block than the 420,.. crank journals are different size than the GX390/420/440/460 family)

I noticed this too.
Short stroke big bore combination is weird but you never know what might turn out to be useful.
I recently clued into this combination having an EFI option.
What other interesting parts might be buried inside that could be useful?

IS the head a small chamber with large valves or is it a dish piston with a 240 head?
You just don't know what you have until you tinker with it.

So far I also found a 306 too.
Maybe the throw and rod length ratio turn out to be a very good combination for something completely different we have not seen yet.
Sometimes things get worse to, look at the 223 small block, there is a mighty long stroke and short rod ( good for nothing ! )
 

jibco520

Member
I realize that, and it amuses me that some feel the Predator is a manufacturers brand. It is simply a store brand, the engines on the shelf today can be different as soon as that stock is gone because a buyer gets a better deal. So ABC is no longer making Predators but XYZ is now making them.

I realize Predators are a store brand - but in comparing apples to apples [301's,420 predators] I figured it's a reasonable question.
 

jibco520

Member
Was wondering if outside dimensions were much different, mounting patterns and such - leaning towards a mini bike use
 
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