kartboy337
Member
This is a certified tech person. Very known in this area, and covers a lot of the big series races down here.
AKRA Muffler Rule
- Thread starter halligan
- Start date
flattop1
Dawg 89
Quote from post 19
The answer I got is every motor at the track must be 100% legal to BOTH NKA and AKRA. When the rules say you can run NKA and AKRA I assumed buying the tech manual and following the AKRA rules was enough. I was wrong.
How are the heads going to pass both rule sets?
One allows porting ; one does not.
Unfortunate situation.
The answer I got is every motor at the track must be 100% legal to BOTH NKA and AKRA. When the rules say you can run NKA and AKRA I assumed buying the tech manual and following the AKRA rules was enough. I was wrong.
How are the heads going to pass both rule sets?
One allows porting ; one does not.
Unfortunate situation.
racerrob66
Member
Its beyond nit picky its insane that would mean you cant run an akra or nka legal engine there it would be another set of rules with akra cam and nka head they would probably have to dq every engine at that track if that is actually the the way they are going to tech engines.
Man sorry for your son... sets an incredibly bad example about authority figures and rules, it was beyond nit-picky to the point of being ignorant... It is exactly things like this that discourage people from the sport... we race under an organized set of rules that is attracting not only former karters but stock & IMCA dirt guys who just want to have fun racing.. (109 karts last race) one page of rules per class... no one needs a certificate to tech... anyone who can use simple basic measuring tools can check most things in 10min. If someone made a BS call like that at one of our races I believe not a single racer would accept it and all would ask the tech to leave and not return... at least thats what i hope would happen
racing promotor
Moderator
And you were correct in that thinking, they are so screwed up when a track allows both rules the racer declares which rule to be teched by in tech, end of story, even so for him to say every other motor ever teched was done so in the same nit picky manor and 100 % legal, is just blowing smoke, tech guy should not be a tech guy, track operator should not be a track operator there WRONG.
1fasttiller
Member
Yes, you and your son got singled out and wrongfully DQ'd. That is ridiculous for a tech man and even the track to allow to have happened to a 7 year old. There is NO WAY both AKRA and NKA rules can be allowed at the same track, the two rule packages vary too much to allow this to even work. If I were you, I'd escalate this to a higher official.
This should have never happened.
This should have never happened.
Having both AKRA and NKA rules at a track can and does work. Many tracks do this with no problems. You just have to declare your rule set before tech, and the engine is teched exclusive to those rules. Now as far as the muffler not being tight it is wrong under NKA per a new albeit needless existing rule. It is also wrong under AKRA for creating a leak in an attempt to gain an advantage. This falls under spirit and intent. It really is a shame that we have to write highly detailed, technically specific rules that would rival a home mortgage contract. Create new gauges and procedures, Just to say "muffler must be tight", it's ridiculous beyond belief that people want to argue about the placement of every comma and period in a rule to gain nothing. Some people will not be satisfied until the rule book is the size of an encyclopedia and requires an engineering degree from MIT just to understand it.
I think we should just scrap all the existing wennie pipes and mufflers. Start from scratch with a new design, new specs and a new muffler. Kill any and all innovation by making it a spec header system that we can write a 5 page rule set with pictures and measurements. Add an appendix to it to define all the engineering language into layman's terms. Create specific expensive tools and no/go's to check the new system with. Then we can create a penalty for anyone found out of spec. Like bar them, their entire family and all future generations from ever racing again, got to make it a tough penalty. Then we can sit back as people start whining and arguing about how unclear and vague the rule is because a period is placed in the wrong spot changing the meaning. So we will revise it several times and finally end up with a 25 page long rule that addresses every possible detail right down to the number of protons and electrons in the atoms that make up the metal.
Or we could just say:
"Muffler must be tight"
I think we should just scrap all the existing wennie pipes and mufflers. Start from scratch with a new design, new specs and a new muffler. Kill any and all innovation by making it a spec header system that we can write a 5 page rule set with pictures and measurements. Add an appendix to it to define all the engineering language into layman's terms. Create specific expensive tools and no/go's to check the new system with. Then we can create a penalty for anyone found out of spec. Like bar them, their entire family and all future generations from ever racing again, got to make it a tough penalty. Then we can sit back as people start whining and arguing about how unclear and vague the rule is because a period is placed in the wrong spot changing the meaning. So we will revise it several times and finally end up with a 25 page long rule that addresses every possible detail right down to the number of protons and electrons in the atoms that make up the metal.
Or we could just say:
"Muffler must be tight"
racing promotor
Moderator
There is a way both akra and nka are allowed to run together, racer just declares which rule at tech, done all the time, just no way to do it saying you must pass both.
flattop1
Dawg 89
The unfortunate thing here is the drivers take away. he or she followed the rules and got flim flamed by the person in authority at the event.
You can say man up its just the way it goes , you win some you lose some , any thing you want its not going to change the perception of " I got Ripped "
Funny Honestly Funny
You can say man up its just the way it goes , you win some you lose some , any thing you want its not going to change the perception of " I got Ripped "
Funny Honestly Funny
kartboy337
Member
Also add to this:
-This race was a points race, that actually had no bearing on the points results in that class.
-There was no money to be won in this race.
-These are 5-8 year olds, and for this particular driver, was his first win.
-This driver and team have not had tech problems in the past.
-This rule was only implemented 2 months ago. (I don't see how a back yard builder would have even known about this rule change.)
-This race was a points race, that actually had no bearing on the points results in that class.
-There was no money to be won in this race.
-These are 5-8 year olds, and for this particular driver, was his first win.
-This driver and team have not had tech problems in the past.
-This rule was only implemented 2 months ago. (I don't see how a back yard builder would have even known about this rule change.)
DynoDon
Moderator
Big Chris
Member
This was an extremely simple hypothesis to test for. Does a loose muffler create a performance advantage?
The engine chosen to test was a purple plate AKRA clone. There are 3 images attached. They are all screenshots of back to back dyno tests of the same engine. To adequately control this experiment, the only variable that was changed was the little pipe's muffler (RLV 4117), all dyno tests were started with a crankcase oil temp of ~150F and a head temp of ~100F. All tests were run within a 12 minute window. The pipe chosen was a RAPP Fab thick flange weenie pipe. I clamped the muffler to the header as is the design intent of this system. I thought about trying the dyno test with the muffler completely loose and not clamped but I did not for the following reasons: a) I did not want to damage good parts i.e. bugger up the threads. b) I thought that the odds of the muffler staying on the header for an entire heat/feature was unlikely if it was 3 turns loose and not clamped. c) that was the reason I decided to perform a test where there was no muffler at all.
The first image 4315 is with the muffler hand tight, a stainless worm type hose clamp was used to secure the muffler to the header (the header's little steel tang).
The second image 4316 was the same engine, literally minutes later, allowing my fans to cool the engine back to the starting point. The muffler was loosened 3 full turns and again clamped to the tang on the header.
The third test, image 4318 was the RAPP fab little pipe with no muffler at all.
The conclusion I come to based on the data attached is there is no performance gain to be had with a loose muffler. In fact, the data suggests that at high rpm, a tightened muffler performs better. The data also shows that removing the muffler altogether does in fact give you a performance gain, especially at higher rpms. Also it should be noted that without a muffler, even with earmuffs on, the engine was loud AF and anyone within earshot of the track would be able to tell something was amiss.
We seem to live in an age where folks can just create a theory without any data to support it. This is simply speculation. What really bugs me, is folks will argue about that.
]
Here's what 3 full turns loose looks like:
The engine chosen to test was a purple plate AKRA clone. There are 3 images attached. They are all screenshots of back to back dyno tests of the same engine. To adequately control this experiment, the only variable that was changed was the little pipe's muffler (RLV 4117), all dyno tests were started with a crankcase oil temp of ~150F and a head temp of ~100F. All tests were run within a 12 minute window. The pipe chosen was a RAPP Fab thick flange weenie pipe. I clamped the muffler to the header as is the design intent of this system. I thought about trying the dyno test with the muffler completely loose and not clamped but I did not for the following reasons: a) I did not want to damage good parts i.e. bugger up the threads. b) I thought that the odds of the muffler staying on the header for an entire heat/feature was unlikely if it was 3 turns loose and not clamped. c) that was the reason I decided to perform a test where there was no muffler at all.
The first image 4315 is with the muffler hand tight, a stainless worm type hose clamp was used to secure the muffler to the header (the header's little steel tang).
The second image 4316 was the same engine, literally minutes later, allowing my fans to cool the engine back to the starting point. The muffler was loosened 3 full turns and again clamped to the tang on the header.
The third test, image 4318 was the RAPP fab little pipe with no muffler at all.
The conclusion I come to based on the data attached is there is no performance gain to be had with a loose muffler. In fact, the data suggests that at high rpm, a tightened muffler performs better. The data also shows that removing the muffler altogether does in fact give you a performance gain, especially at higher rpms. Also it should be noted that without a muffler, even with earmuffs on, the engine was loud AF and anyone within earshot of the track would be able to tell something was amiss.
We seem to live in an age where folks can just create a theory without any data to support it. This is simply speculation. What really bugs me, is folks will argue about that.
]
Here's what 3 full turns loose looks like:
Attachments
Last edited:
Racingcarb.com
Member
We tested this many times when the weenie pipe first came out and found the same thing Chris has just found out. Before a rule is thrown out there it needs to have some facts behind it other than someone calling up and saying it's an advantage and causing heartache with someone getting thrown out over something that has zero to do with them winning.