Animal blue to gold ??
- Thread starter Thunder24
- Start date
racing promotor
Moderator
Most will tell you Carb as well, but we had a strong blue plate motor and switched to gold all the time always ran just fine for us.
Good Luck !!
CarlsonMotorsports
Member
Depends on what was done to the carb -- I would be one of those that would say to change the whole carb.
If the carb only ever had the jets changed and not really blueprinted, then just swap out the jets and have at it. Once you start working the emulsion tube, and the air side of these carbs, they're a bit more particular than just swapping out jets.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
If the carb only ever had the jets changed and not really blueprinted, then just swap out the jets and have at it. Once you start working the emulsion tube, and the air side of these carbs, they're a bit more particular than just swapping out jets.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
I’m wondering how much a “bit” is.
Generally speaking, nobody seems to care what the air density is. If you do the calculations, you’ll find that a changed in jetting, from 0.039 to 0.040, is enough to cover five points on the air density gauge.
Does the change in plates make a 5% difference in jetting? Just asking.
Generally speaking, what’s the difference in size between the jets in most people’s toolbox? Can you tell me the difference in fuel requirements, in percentages, between the plates? A change, in requirements, of 5%, seems like a lot.
Now I don’t know how much a “bit” is, it could be 5%, but I don’t know.
Of course you said it takes more than a jet change, but you didn’t say if it was too little change to mess with the jets.
I don’t know anything about emulsion tubes. How do you calculate their effect on mixture?
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
CarlsonMotorsports
Member
Al, I'll try to answer your questions as best I can. Despite what you may think or say, most engine builders are quite concerned with air density, and more specifically altitude density so that we can be sure that the engine is fueled correctly for the customer when it leaves the dyno. With that said, it's rare that you see a 5 point change in AD at the same track from one night to the next. The change in plates most certainly can make a 5% difference in jetting. The difference in size between jets in most people's tool boxes is 2% I would think (let's say a .049" to ,050" jet size) that are commonly available. I tend to use 1/2 thousandths sizes but even then, I don't recommend that my customers fool around with changing jets on their animal carbs unless they are already using egt AND are really on top of the fueling of these engines. Honestly, most customers don't want bothered with pulling the float bowl and changing jets at the track (even if there is power to be made in it.) They want "plug and play" race engines that run good from week to week without issues. Others are still learning (myself included) and don't mind making small changes at the track if it'll make them faster. Since there's a common perception that kart (dirt oval) racing is all about tires right now, most racers will concentrate on their tire program moreso than squeezing the last bit of power from their engine program. I can't say that I blame them -- I can pick up a full second on a 20 second track just in tires, and I certainly can't do that by changing a jet.
Without an air/fuel ratio meter or the likes alongside the dyno, I think you're just shooting arrows in the dark. EGT is helpful and gives valuable information, sure, but even that doesn't tell the whole story. I can check fuel vacuum and air flow through an animal carb on a digital flowbench and get a decent baseline setting, but there's still a lot more going on with a float style carb.
Most animal engine builders and guys that specialize in these carbs build the carbs for a specific application/class. For me, the same carb body can be used in purple or blue plate with minor changes. Another carb can be used with gold, black or unrestricted, again with very minor changes. Going from a small plate to a large plate (or unrestricted) is difficult at best with the way I (and many others) are doing carbs currently. When you start working the air side of these carbs, you bring in a whole new set of variables to play with. E-tubes are almost a black art -- the hole sizes, which holes to ream larger, which holes to chamfer, which holes to not chamfer...for a while we were even soldering up holes. Couple that with the thought that we have no idea what was done to the OP's carb or who did the work (also making the assumption that it was done right to begin with.) I've gotten in carbs on some other builders' engines that I simply could not save for the customer.
I'll stand by my statement:
I'm certainly not going to suggest he make a 5% change in anything without seeing his carb here in my shop. Maybe he simply needs to change jets and/or float height - I couldn't tell you because I likely did not build his carb. That's why I caution against just changing plates from blue to gold.
Without an air/fuel ratio meter or the likes alongside the dyno, I think you're just shooting arrows in the dark. EGT is helpful and gives valuable information, sure, but even that doesn't tell the whole story. I can check fuel vacuum and air flow through an animal carb on a digital flowbench and get a decent baseline setting, but there's still a lot more going on with a float style carb.
Most animal engine builders and guys that specialize in these carbs build the carbs for a specific application/class. For me, the same carb body can be used in purple or blue plate with minor changes. Another carb can be used with gold, black or unrestricted, again with very minor changes. Going from a small plate to a large plate (or unrestricted) is difficult at best with the way I (and many others) are doing carbs currently. When you start working the air side of these carbs, you bring in a whole new set of variables to play with. E-tubes are almost a black art -- the hole sizes, which holes to ream larger, which holes to chamfer, which holes to not chamfer...for a while we were even soldering up holes. Couple that with the thought that we have no idea what was done to the OP's carb or who did the work (also making the assumption that it was done right to begin with.) I've gotten in carbs on some other builders' engines that I simply could not save for the customer.
I'll stand by my statement:
I'm certainly not going to suggest he make a 5% change in anything without seeing his carb here in my shop. Maybe he simply needs to change jets and/or float height - I couldn't tell you because I likely did not build his carb. That's why I caution against just changing plates from blue to gold.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
CarlsonMotorsports said;
Despite what you may think or say, most engine builders are quite concerned with air density,
What I said was;
“Generally speaking, nobody seems to care what the air density is.”
So, compared to all the people in karting, what percentage are engine builders. So, if only the engine builders have them, then “Generaly Speaking” would apply.
“and more specifically altitude density”
I’m wondering about that statement.
With that said, it's rare that you see a 5 point change in AD at the same track from one night to the next.
Maybe from “night to night”, although I wonder about that, but you go from a hot afternoon to a cool evening, I think you might see something different.
The difference in size between jets in most people's tool boxes is 2%
I’m wondering where you came up with that number? The area difference, not the diameter, which is what you want to know, is 4.083% from a .049-.050 jet. An air density gauge measures in percentage of change. The instructions with the gauge say change the jet by 1% for every 1% change in air density.
I would think (let's say a .049" to ,050" jet size) that are commonly available.
Commonly available?
I tend to use 1/2 thousandths sizes
Tell me how you make those sizes?
but even then, I don't recommend that my customers fool around with changing jets on their animal carbs unless they are already using egt AND are really on top of the fueling of these engines.
And this is what you think of your customers. They can’t handel it.
Honestly, most customers don't want bothered with pulling the float bowl and changing jets at the track (even if there is power to be made in it.) They want "plug and play" race engines that run good from week to week without issues.
And so it’s for your customers sake that you count me wrong.
Others are still learning (myself included) and don't mind making small changes at the track if it'll make them faster. Since there's a common perception that kart (dirt oval) racing is all about tires right now, most racers will concentrate on their tire program moreso than squeezing the last bit of power from their engine program. I can't say that I blame them -- I can pick up a full second on a 20 second track just in tires, and I certainly can't do that by changing a jet.
Without an air/fuel ratio meter or the likes alongside the dyno, I think you're just shooting arrows in the dark. EGT is helpful and gives valuable information, sure, but even that doesn't tell the whole story.
Amd where did I ever even imply that jetting is the whole story.
I can check fuel vacuum and air flow through an animal carb on a digital flowbench and get a decent baseline setting,
So now you’re talking about a “decent baseline” setting.
but there's still a lot more going on with a float style carb.
Now this is the stuff one might not bother explaining to a newbee.
I'll stand by my statement:
I'm certainly not going to suggest he make a 5% change in anything without seeing his carb here in my shop. Maybe he simply needs to change jets and/or float height
But a change of jets, lets say .039” to .040” is more than a 5% change.
- I couldn't tell you because I likely did not build his carb. That's why I caution against just changing plates from blue to gold.
But you suggest changing the e-tube.
So many holes is this post, and you get on my case because I’m telling people about air density???
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
Despite what you may think or say, most engine builders are quite concerned with air density,
What I said was;
“Generally speaking, nobody seems to care what the air density is.”
So, compared to all the people in karting, what percentage are engine builders. So, if only the engine builders have them, then “Generaly Speaking” would apply.
“and more specifically altitude density”
I’m wondering about that statement.
With that said, it's rare that you see a 5 point change in AD at the same track from one night to the next.
Maybe from “night to night”, although I wonder about that, but you go from a hot afternoon to a cool evening, I think you might see something different.
The difference in size between jets in most people's tool boxes is 2%
I’m wondering where you came up with that number? The area difference, not the diameter, which is what you want to know, is 4.083% from a .049-.050 jet. An air density gauge measures in percentage of change. The instructions with the gauge say change the jet by 1% for every 1% change in air density.
I would think (let's say a .049" to ,050" jet size) that are commonly available.
Commonly available?
I tend to use 1/2 thousandths sizes
Tell me how you make those sizes?
but even then, I don't recommend that my customers fool around with changing jets on their animal carbs unless they are already using egt AND are really on top of the fueling of these engines.
And this is what you think of your customers. They can’t handel it.
Honestly, most customers don't want bothered with pulling the float bowl and changing jets at the track (even if there is power to be made in it.) They want "plug and play" race engines that run good from week to week without issues.
And so it’s for your customers sake that you count me wrong.
Others are still learning (myself included) and don't mind making small changes at the track if it'll make them faster. Since there's a common perception that kart (dirt oval) racing is all about tires right now, most racers will concentrate on their tire program moreso than squeezing the last bit of power from their engine program. I can't say that I blame them -- I can pick up a full second on a 20 second track just in tires, and I certainly can't do that by changing a jet.
Without an air/fuel ratio meter or the likes alongside the dyno, I think you're just shooting arrows in the dark. EGT is helpful and gives valuable information, sure, but even that doesn't tell the whole story.
Amd where did I ever even imply that jetting is the whole story.
I can check fuel vacuum and air flow through an animal carb on a digital flowbench and get a decent baseline setting,
So now you’re talking about a “decent baseline” setting.
but there's still a lot more going on with a float style carb.
Now this is the stuff one might not bother explaining to a newbee.
I'll stand by my statement:
I'm certainly not going to suggest he make a 5% change in anything without seeing his carb here in my shop. Maybe he simply needs to change jets and/or float height
But a change of jets, lets say .039” to .040” is more than a 5% change.
- I couldn't tell you because I likely did not build his carb. That's why I caution against just changing plates from blue to gold.
But you suggest changing the e-tube.
So many holes is this post, and you get on my case because I’m telling people about air density???
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
CarlsonMotorsports
Member
Wow, where do I start, Al?
I tried to address your questions. I'll try nicely once again.
You don't like my answers, fine -- move on. What was the reason for your post in this man's thread again?
CarlsonMotorsports said;
Despite what you may think or say, most engine builders are quite concerned with air density,
What I said was;
“Generally speaking, nobody seems to care what the air density is.”
So, compared to all the people in karting, what percentage are engine builders. So, if only the engine builders have them, then “Generaly Speaking” would apply.
You said “Generally speaking, nobody seems to care what the air density is.”
I refuted that statement by providing the fact that most engine builders DO care about air density. I have no idea what percentage are engine builders, but it is certainly more than "nobody."
“and more specifically altitude density”
I’m wondering about that statement.
Measuring density altitude is of utmost importance when fine tuning an engine. You should be well aware of that. Please also include the statement in context of the engine being jetted correctly when it leaves the dyno. It DOES make a difference if a racer is in Denver, CO, or at Daytona Beach, FL.
With that said, it's rare that you see a 5 point change in AD at the same track from one night to the next.
Maybe from “night to night”, although I wonder about that, but you go from a hot afternoon to a cool evening, I think you might see something different.
Rarely do I see a change of 5% from the time hot laps start to the end of our features. What I said was that it's rare from one night to the next.
The difference in size between jets in most people's tool boxes is 2%
I’m wondering where you came up with that number? I came to that conclusion by having 25 years of experience in this business full time building engines and knowing what access to jets my customers have at the trackThe area difference, not the diameter, which is what you want to know, is 4.083% from a .049-.050 jet. An air density gauge measures in percentage of change. The instructions with the gauge say change the jet by 1% for every 1% change in air density.You should know this better than anyone since you spent the time to create a whole spreadsheet on this.
I would think (let's say a .049" to ,050" jet size) that are commonly available.
Commonly available?
I have them available, as do most major kart shops and engine builders. You can order them online or purchase them from a trackside vendor. That's about as available as it gets in karting.
I tend to use 1/2 thousandths sizes
Tell me how you make those sizes?
With straight flute reamers. Not the el-cheapo imports or with number drill bits. I've made jets for other engine builders and mail order houses for many years.
but even then, I don't recommend that my customers fool around with changing jets on their animal carbs unless they are already using egt AND are really on top of the fueling of these engines.
And this is what you think of your customers. They can’t handel it.
You made that statement - I did not. Some can't handle it, that I am sure. Others don't want to bother with it -- please read this statement in context, sir. You quoted the rest below.
Honestly, most customers don't want bothered with pulling the float bowl and changing jets at the track (even if there is power to be made in it.) They want "plug and play" race engines that run good from week to week without issues.
And so it’s for your customers sake that you count me wrong.I guess I don't understand what you are trying to say. I think you have become frustrated and are taking things out of context again. What I said is a true and factual statement - I have no idea what I am counting as wrong about you.
Others are still learning (myself included) and don't mind making small changes at the track if it'll make them faster. Since there's a common perception that kart (dirt oval) racing is all about tires right now, most racers will concentrate on their tire program moreso than squeezing the last bit of power from their engine program. I can't say that I blame them -- I can pick up a full second on a 20 second track just in tires, and I certainly can't do that by changing a jet.
Without an air/fuel ratio meter or the likes alongside the dyno, I think you're just shooting arrows in the dark. EGT is helpful and gives valuable information, sure, but even that doesn't tell the whole story.
Amd where did I ever even imply that jetting is the whole story.You did not, nor did I say that you implied such.
I can check fuel vacuum and air flow through an animal carb on a digital flowbench and get a decent baseline setting,
So now you’re talking about a “decent baseline” setting.
Yes, when a customer orders a blueprinted carburetor, I don't just polish it up and hand it to them. I build the carb based on years of notes and testing to best meet their application.
but there's still a lot more going on with a float style carb.
Now this is the stuff one might not bother explaining to a newbee.
That's exactly why I did not include it.
I'll stand by my statement:
I'm certainly not going to suggest he make a 5% change in anything without seeing his carb here in my shop. Maybe he simply needs to change jets and/or float height
But a change of jets, lets say .039” to .040” is more than a 5% change.
- I couldn't tell you because I likely did not build his carb. That's why I caution against just changing plates from blue to gold.
But you suggest changing the e-tube.
I did? Where?
Where did I suggest him (or anyone) changing the E-tube?
So many holes is this post, and you get on my case because I’m telling people about air density???
Excuse me? Holes in my post? Because you don't agree with me, my information now has "holes?"
I'm on your case about air density? How, or where is that?
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
From the previous statement above, it appears that all these things are NOT welcome, Al.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
My data supports my post - I did not present a theory, therfore I do not need a new one.
I was just trying to help the original poster, AL. IF you have some beef with me, take it to private messages. I've already spent way too much time trying to justify my response to you on this thread. My thought is that nothing I can say or show you (data included) will change your mind.
There was a block feature on the old forums, I assume there is a similar feature on the new one. I suggest that you add my username to your block user settings if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Sorry again to the original poster, I was only trying to help.
I tried to address your questions. I'll try nicely once again.
You don't like my answers, fine -- move on. What was the reason for your post in this man's thread again?
CarlsonMotorsports said;
Despite what you may think or say, most engine builders are quite concerned with air density,
What I said was;
“Generally speaking, nobody seems to care what the air density is.”
So, compared to all the people in karting, what percentage are engine builders. So, if only the engine builders have them, then “Generaly Speaking” would apply.
You said “Generally speaking, nobody seems to care what the air density is.”
I refuted that statement by providing the fact that most engine builders DO care about air density. I have no idea what percentage are engine builders, but it is certainly more than "nobody."
“and more specifically altitude density”
I’m wondering about that statement.
Measuring density altitude is of utmost importance when fine tuning an engine. You should be well aware of that. Please also include the statement in context of the engine being jetted correctly when it leaves the dyno. It DOES make a difference if a racer is in Denver, CO, or at Daytona Beach, FL.
With that said, it's rare that you see a 5 point change in AD at the same track from one night to the next.
Maybe from “night to night”, although I wonder about that, but you go from a hot afternoon to a cool evening, I think you might see something different.
Rarely do I see a change of 5% from the time hot laps start to the end of our features. What I said was that it's rare from one night to the next.
The difference in size between jets in most people's tool boxes is 2%
I’m wondering where you came up with that number? I came to that conclusion by having 25 years of experience in this business full time building engines and knowing what access to jets my customers have at the trackThe area difference, not the diameter, which is what you want to know, is 4.083% from a .049-.050 jet. An air density gauge measures in percentage of change. The instructions with the gauge say change the jet by 1% for every 1% change in air density.You should know this better than anyone since you spent the time to create a whole spreadsheet on this.
I would think (let's say a .049" to ,050" jet size) that are commonly available.
Commonly available?
I have them available, as do most major kart shops and engine builders. You can order them online or purchase them from a trackside vendor. That's about as available as it gets in karting.
I tend to use 1/2 thousandths sizes
Tell me how you make those sizes?
With straight flute reamers. Not the el-cheapo imports or with number drill bits. I've made jets for other engine builders and mail order houses for many years.
but even then, I don't recommend that my customers fool around with changing jets on their animal carbs unless they are already using egt AND are really on top of the fueling of these engines.
And this is what you think of your customers. They can’t handel it.
You made that statement - I did not. Some can't handle it, that I am sure. Others don't want to bother with it -- please read this statement in context, sir. You quoted the rest below.
Honestly, most customers don't want bothered with pulling the float bowl and changing jets at the track (even if there is power to be made in it.) They want "plug and play" race engines that run good from week to week without issues.
And so it’s for your customers sake that you count me wrong.I guess I don't understand what you are trying to say. I think you have become frustrated and are taking things out of context again. What I said is a true and factual statement - I have no idea what I am counting as wrong about you.
Others are still learning (myself included) and don't mind making small changes at the track if it'll make them faster. Since there's a common perception that kart (dirt oval) racing is all about tires right now, most racers will concentrate on their tire program moreso than squeezing the last bit of power from their engine program. I can't say that I blame them -- I can pick up a full second on a 20 second track just in tires, and I certainly can't do that by changing a jet.
Without an air/fuel ratio meter or the likes alongside the dyno, I think you're just shooting arrows in the dark. EGT is helpful and gives valuable information, sure, but even that doesn't tell the whole story.
Amd where did I ever even imply that jetting is the whole story.You did not, nor did I say that you implied such.
I can check fuel vacuum and air flow through an animal carb on a digital flowbench and get a decent baseline setting,
So now you’re talking about a “decent baseline” setting.
Yes, when a customer orders a blueprinted carburetor, I don't just polish it up and hand it to them. I build the carb based on years of notes and testing to best meet their application.
but there's still a lot more going on with a float style carb.
Now this is the stuff one might not bother explaining to a newbee.
That's exactly why I did not include it.
I'll stand by my statement:
I'm certainly not going to suggest he make a 5% change in anything without seeing his carb here in my shop. Maybe he simply needs to change jets and/or float height
But a change of jets, lets say .039” to .040” is more than a 5% change.
- I couldn't tell you because I likely did not build his carb. That's why I caution against just changing plates from blue to gold.
But you suggest changing the e-tube.
I did? Where?
Where did I suggest him (or anyone) changing the E-tube?
So many holes is this post, and you get on my case because I’m telling people about air density???
Excuse me? Holes in my post? Because you don't agree with me, my information now has "holes?"
I'm on your case about air density? How, or where is that?
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
From the previous statement above, it appears that all these things are NOT welcome, Al.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory.
My data supports my post - I did not present a theory, therfore I do not need a new one.
I was just trying to help the original poster, AL. IF you have some beef with me, take it to private messages. I've already spent way too much time trying to justify my response to you on this thread. My thought is that nothing I can say or show you (data included) will change your mind.
There was a block feature on the old forums, I assume there is a similar feature on the new one. I suggest that you add my username to your block user settings if you don't want to read what I have to say.
Sorry again to the original poster, I was only trying to help.
Thanks Mr carlson and race promoter for your input . As far as Alvin next time start your own critical post and don't get on mine and question someone that is trying to help me make a decision you not one time gave me an opinion on what you thought I should change you started questioning ithe ones that were answering my post to the best of there ability and as far as I can tell from reading other post on here Mr Carlson has the expertise to answer my question and I thank him for that !! Thanks. Kenny /Thunder 24
jsstump#70
Member
Thunder, you will find very few with better info or suggestions than Carlson Motorsports. Always useful info. One of Bobs best, IMO.
the way i see it he is trying to work with what he has and is not worried about getting every bit of power out of the motor i am sure if he was wanting to get the most hp out of the motor his ? would have been worded in another way i think carlson gave him the best answer. Al you just get to technical for most folks on here with your air density and all your spredsheets .. but i am sure you mean well and are just trying to help .. but we are racing dirt and tires and setup are king
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
And you notice I did say, .... somewhere; "after you get the tires and setup right". And if I'm too technical, I apologize, but it's because I do not want to talk down to anyone.
I had someone write me a few years back about that. He was just starting out and had trouble understanding what I was talking about. After he figured it out, he told me what a big help it was.
What I don't understand is how people obsess over gear sets with the same ratio and ignore the air density. I can't help but believe that jetting for the air density is much more important.
Thank you for the kind words. They're very much appreciated.
I make no money off of karting! My only reward for the time I spend here is knowing that maybe I helped someone. And of course sharing my knowledge is a big high for me. I'm a Leo, nuff said.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
I sincerely apologize if I make you feel that way. I'll try not to get on your posts again.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
From Wikipedia;
Verbosity (also called wordiness, prolixity, grandiloquence, garrulousness, expatiation, and logorrhea.) refers to speech or writing which is deemed to use an excess of words.
Do I do that? I don't think so. But maybe I'm wrong.
I think the reason you don't see more people tuning for power with jetting is that when using methanol it makes very little difference, especially as compared to gas. Most drag racers who have to tune to the weather due to the nature of the sport, did away with the air density gauge about 25 years ago. They want to know temp, humidity, and barometric pressure. You tune differently to each of these. An air density gauge does not consider humidity. Humidity is just as important to know. Many of the gas motors could benefit from the cold air season tune up to warm air for sure. But as stated above they want to concentrate on tires and setup which is generally more important.