Animal BP again

ON a different view.
I remember when the clone first came out. It was the engine that would save karting . $75.00 at Harbor freight. Blueprinted animal then was $850 . that is what I paid for first animal. Long time ago. Still have that engine. runs great. Bought the engine from Bug Norris. Won and still winning races with it. and yes I have replaced every part inside the engine and Bore is now .030 over.
I did buy a clone for my son to race. Again from bug Norris. took it to the track he won the race. Next week he was lapped about lap 5. By the entire field. Only clone I will ever own.
 
I’m well aware of history of the engines and the bs and whining that came along with it. I must have over $10k in clones, animal limited, stock and limited flatheads + thousands in parts and tools. And I’m a small fish in this sport. If your racing an lo206 and have several people to race against, that’s great. If you have several people with Yamaha kt100 or a group with 100 cc reed 2 bangers, have at it. What your local area is doing I recommend do that. But creating a new class with an expensive engine is just throwing a monkey wrench into everyone’s program and making the night longer. The only way you’re gonna get any engine off the ground is to let them run it against what your locals are currently running with a weight penalty/advantage given to the lower hp motor. If there is any advantage to either engine package either Hp or expense. One motor will drive the other into extinction. That’s how it has worked in this sport for decades.
 
J'-remy said:
I’m well aware of history of the engines and the bs and whining that came along with it. I must have over $10k in clones, animal limited, stock and limited flatheads + thousands in parts and tools. And I’m a small fish in this sport. If your racing an lo206 and have several people to race against, that’s great. If you have several people with Yamaha kt100 or a group with 100 cc reed 2 bangers, have at it. What your local area is doing I recommend do that. But creating a new class with an expensive engine is just throwing a monkey wrench into everyone’s program and making the night longer. The only way you’re gonna get any engine off the ground is to let them run it against what your locals are currently running with a weight penalty/advantage given to the lower hp motor. If there is any advantage to either engine package either Hp or expense. One motor will drive the other into extinction. That’s how it has worked in this sport for decades.
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Would it be fair to suggest letting a guy run his sealed LO206 in the Predator class? It has a rev limiter coil @ 6100. You could even let the Predator guys raise their governors to 6100 to match them. Give the Predator a weight break and let the two engines run together and let one motor drive the other into extinction as you suggest.
 
One Fast Kat said:
ON a different view.
I remember when the clone first came out. It was the engine that would save karting . $75.00 at Harbor freight. Blueprinted animal then was $850 . that is what I paid for first animal. Long time ago. Still have that engine. runs great. Bought the engine from Bug Norris. Won and still winning races with it. and yes I have replaced every part inside the engine and Bore is now .030 over.
I did buy a clone for my son to race. Again from bug Norris. took it to the track he won the race. Next week he was lapped about lap 5. By the entire field. Only clone I will ever own.
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Everyone says the tires win races. Sounds like you missed it that week
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
Would it be fair to suggest letting a guy run his sealed LO206 in the Predator class? It has a rev limiter coil @ 6100. You could even let the Predator guys raise their governors to 6100 to match them. Give the Predator a weight break and let the two engines run together and let one motor drive the other into extinction as you suggest.
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Wouldn’t be my decision but I doubt you would get anyone near me in the predator class to fork over 1000 for a motor plus shipping. When they can get it locally for under 200
 
ABR #69 said:
But, if they can run and are competitive together, then would you be against it if someone else ran one is the question?
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I don't race this class anymore. could care less if they ran together just don't give me another class of three karts. if we're gonna run the 206 might as well let in the ducar 212, the ghost and the tillotson. I don't see anyone in the predator class itching to spend $1000 and ditch the motor they have. or not just move to clone
 
Would they really be equal when the box stock Predator, which is the motor generally referred to in the term Predator class, runs best around 4900 rpm vs. 6100 rpm LO206?
 
J'-remy said:
I don't race this class anymore. could care less if they ran together just don't give me another class of three karts. if we're gonna run the 206 might as well let in the ducar 212, the ghost and the tillotson. I don't see anyone in the predator class itching to spend $1000 and ditch the motor they have. or not just move to clone
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They're already spending $650+ the base engine. So your argument is already invalid.

(Edit) But, that's the point I made, give them an RPM limited coil and let them go nuts, put a few checks on them to keep parity and curb obvious cheats.
 
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ABR #69 said:
They're already spending $650+ the base engine. So your argument is already invalid.

(Edit) But, that's the point I made, give them an RPM limited coil and let them go nuts, put a few checks on them to keep parity and curb obvious cheats.
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are you talking about cheated up engines? very few people are spending that type of money around here. motor, chain guard, throttle return is not any where close 650
 
J'-remy said:
Wouldn’t be my decision but I doubt you would get anyone near me in the predator class to fork over 1000 for a motor plus shipping. When they can get it locally for under 200
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But I thought that is exactly what you suggested in post #42: "The only way you’re gonna get any engine off the ground is to let them run it against what your locals are currently running with a weight penalty/advantage given to the lower hp motor. If there is any advantage to either engine package either Hp or expense. One motor will drive the other into extinction. That’s how it has worked in this sport for decades."

Except that is NOT how it has worked for decades in karting. It's always been by adding a new class. Only exception I can think of is going way back to the '80s where you had 100cc piston port and rotary classes. Yamaha was then given it's own class. UAS is about the only form of karting that has allowed run-whatcha-brung engine packages, and yes, they have CC rules with weight breaks.

The LO206 engine is still MAP $599 (at least for another 2 weeks.) Comparing a tuned, with all bolt-ons added, 206 @ $1000 is kinda like you saying that Predators are no where near $650 when obviously "many" are.

Now, either you are for mixing engines in the same class or not.
Personally, I am not, but it IS one way to introduce another engine without adding more classes.

My whole point of adding to this old thread was that the 206 has been embraced by the winged outlaw cage karts and is working well as a stand-alone engine package that can be updated from restrictor slide to adult to a 16+ HP slightly modified engine that's a relatively inexpensive upgrade, somewhat dependable, and "fun" to race, all using the same original engine. I certainly am not suggesting that the 206 be the replacement for all of karting. I like the engine, but I also like flatheads, animals, small block opens, and big block Hondas. Karting has historically been about tinkerers and shade tree mechanics trying to tweak more power out of whatever engine they have and building it up within the sanctioning body's rules. Sealed, rev limited, low base cost engines are not for everyone - it's simply another choice.
 
???? last I checked 650 is still less than 1000. and if you already spent 650 why would a cheater throw it away for a 1000 motor you cant as easily cheat? I don't think you are looking at this from the racers point of view. it has worked for a less expensive option not the other way around ie clones and predators. I remember kohers running with limiteds and clones against animals with a weight break. If you think your gonna get the class full of old karts and $200.00 motors to fork over $1000.00 for a new class nobody is asking for, go right ahead. I don't care just pointing out what I see as obvious. I saw a local track purchase 10 ducars 212s to no avail. still sitting in the shed un opened.
on a Saturday night the predators are the biggest classes there are. the track isn't going to kill its most popular program.
I have heard of the LO206 being the next bing thing since 2012. It may have worked in the road course classes but not here on dirt.
 
$100 engine "cheated" as you call it up to $650 is a $550 increase in price.
$599 engine "tuned" including all the bolt-ons is a $400 increase in price.
I could break it down in percentages and individualize the cost of the bolt-on components if you'd like.
That's not even my point. You stated that engines should be combined in classes, but you are against this one engine being introduced (based on cost?) If the engine being introduced were $4000 would it make a difference? Either you think engines should be combined in classes (like you said in post #42) or you don't.
Again, the point of my reviving this post was that there is a step BEYOND the sealed 206 that is promising for those wanting more power. I never even suggested that this was an option to replace the $100 Predator class in eastern Tennessee.
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
$100 engine "cheated" as you call it up to $650 is a $550 increase in price.
$599 engine "tuned" including all the bolt-ons is a $400 increase in price.
I could break it down in percentages and individualize the cost of the bolt-on components if you'd like.
That's not even my point. You stated that engines should be combined in classes, but you are against this one engine being introduced (based on cost?) If the engine being introduced were $4000 would it make a difference? Either you think engines should be combined in classes (like you said in post #42) or you don't.
Again, the point of my reviving this post was that there is a step BEYOND the sealed 206 that is promising for those wanting more power. I never even suggested that this was an option to replace the $100 Predator class in eastern Tennessee.
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It doesn't really matter as I have already noticed the predator is going down the same rabbit hole as the flathead and clone did in years past. Once a sanctioning body decides to take the predator under their wing and write rules for it they will be the same price as a clone or animal engine. In my personal opinion ALL tracks should mix up the engines in stock classes and let them run with a weight break of course.
 
Why weight breaks? It will just cause arguments.... If you want to let the best motor to rise to the top, run them against each other and let it happen.
 
I think there should be a way to put parity in the rules for all the rpm limited engines, and the Builder prepared engines. I just can't see why we need more than two classes with weight classes like we had for each.

Put them all together let them race, I know they will never be equal and that's fine. Just so long as they're close enough that sometimes they can all win. But, most importantly you can choose which you feel like is best and go from there. If it's really about choice, then why not give them all the choices. But, if we can unite everyone under one set of rules, then you can travel the country like before and race any weekend, at any track. That's hurting things more than anything else, because no one says it. They would probably try more tracks if they knew they could. But, ultimately it's price that's killing everything. WE all know it. We just won't do what it takes to stop it now.
 
My opposition to combining engines within a class can be summed up with USAC national midget racing.
The best engines cost the most, and if you are not running one of the latest versions, you don't have much of a chance to win (unless it's a little bullring track that essentially takes the motor out of the equation.) $65,000 4 cylinders are NOT the way to go -- which is why they have spun off several spec classes over the years - Kenyon, Ecotec, D2, etc.

On top of that, I've got over $5000 invested in tools to tech 5 different engines and dozens of class variations in karting already.
Our industry is desperate for qualified tech men currently. We're certainly not offering them any incentives to continue (or become) certified tech by adding more rules, more tools, and more expense.
Seriously, the sealed 206 still needs teched, but tech is easier that with BP engines. The pro wing engines are just about as easy to tech. I really like the engine platform and the fact that you can grow with it. Again, not saying that it's for everyone, but it is working well where it has been established.
 
Sadly you were going to invest that money in tools if you wanted to stay relevant in building engines in this sport regardless if those engines were run together or if they are run separately as they are now. So that cost is a mute point, and I mean no disrespect. But, it's just a sad reality.

I don't have the answers, but I know the way it's going isn't it. Till we try something different, we can't say it won't work. Lots of things in karting don't work in other forms of racing, just like some things in other forms of racing don't work for karting. Till we break away from the same old road we're traveling, it's hard to say what will and won't work. But, it takes effort from both sides.
 
ABR #69 said:
Sadly you were going to invest that money in tools if you wanted to stay relevant in building engines in this sport regardless if those engines were run together or if they are run separately as they are now. So that cost is a mute point, and I mean no disrespect. But, it's just a sad reality.

I don't have the answers, but I know the way it's going isn't it. Till we try something different, we can't say it won't work. Lots of things in karting don't work in other forms of racing, just like some things in other forms of racing don't work for karting. Till we break away from the same old road we're traveling, it's hard to say what will and won't work. But, it takes effort from both sides.
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Definitely NOT a moot point. See, if it were UAS format and we were just looking at CCs, I would agree -- because you're not looking at stock blueprinted engines. As soon as you try to compare stock engine parts one to another, you've got to have rules for each individual engine. At that point, the cost for enforcing those rules for the additional engines increases exponentially. For instance, I don't currently own any no-go gauges or tech tools specific to the HF Predator, Ghost, Tillotson 212RS, or 225RS. Just adding those 4 engines nearly doubles my array of tech tools. Consider, based on currently available tech tool prices - the cost to equip my tool box for just the carbs alone $250/set) for these 4 engines increases my cost by $1000. That's presuming no one introduces yet another new engine!
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
Definitely NOT a moot point. See, if it were UAS format and we were just looking at CCs, I would agree -- because you're not looking at stock blueprinted engines. As soon as you try to compare stock engine parts one to another, you've got to have rules for each individual engine. At that point, the cost for enforcing those rules for the additional engines increases exponentially. For instance, I don't currently own any no-go gauges or tech tools specific to the HF Predator, Ghost, Tillotson 212RS, or 225RS. Just adding those 4 engines nearly doubles my array of tech tools. Consider, based on currently available tech tool prices - the cost to equip my tool box for just the carbs alone $250/set) for these 4 engines increases my cost by $1000. That's presuming no one introduces yet another new engine!
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It is understandable on the tech side where this can be costly. We all complain about how many classes there are and how long it takes for 1 night of racing. I wouldn't even let those engines on the track until there is a rule set for them by a sanctioning body personally. But if we were to combine current engines built to spec whether akra, wka, or nka to one class with weight breaks it would be better for all of us. They do it in some Jr classes why not adult classes. I would rather see a field of flatheads, animals, and clones go at it then sit there waiting for hours for all 15+ classes to run. In any form of racing there are different manufacturers of engines that run against each other. We preach that the best kart on the track is the guy who has the best tire and setup for said conditions. So why not put our money where our mouth is and prove it.
 
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