Are Predators killing the clone?

XXX#40

2A supporter
this is not what the local kart counts are saying. the only time you see good clone kart counts is when there are money races or points racing. the $99 motor package has become the big class as of late. the issue becomes the cheating as any rule set will just repeat the clone. the purse of that Woodleaf race just goes to show the tracks are putting up money in the predator class and the pros are running them too (because of its popularity). the lap times show nobody is playing by the rules, and these are big names who are up on their tire game. its obvious everyone in that race had a built motor, when the predator is $1300 what's the point in having two classes?
On our local level, it's pretty evident what the karters want...no?
Tater does a good job policing the class.
Raced OTB and 5000 rpm rule with the claim works
 

DynoDon

Moderator
The predator isn’t going to kill the clone. The promoters are hurting the clone in areas where the predator is plentiful. They continue to give in to add ons and replacement parts instead of holding the line on out of the box engine. The 212 will not last as in a previous post because the 223 is waiting in the woods. If promoters would have left it alone and treated it the way it was intended the clone would be stronger than it is right now. The entire program was done incorrectly. BUT, that’s what ya get when promoters just want that bottom line.
 

"J'-remy

Member
On our local level, it's pretty evident what the karters want...no?
Tater does a good job policing the class.
Raced OTB and 5000 rpm rule with the claim works
I think racers want to race. I was successful in Predator and prefer the lower hp platform. but the motor is hit or miss as far as power and how it performs week to week. one night its great next week the motor just wont turn the rpms. I also don't like the RPM check after the race do it in the grid before we go out or check our tachs. the Clone and its rules even out the playing field and I can go to the Carolinas ,Georgia or Alabama and everyone has the same rules. racing the predator your stuck at your local track. you would need 6 predators to race in different areas of the country.
And Tater told me he would prefer the LO206 to the predator.
I was also just quoted $1700.00 for an AKRA motor which won't help the clone either
 

DynoDon

Moderator
Something to think about when it comes to cost of any engine. OVERHEAD. Major Builders aren’t a one person business. They have employees and with that is workmans comp. Equiptment, lights, heat, tooling, insurance, inventory, advertisements, and the list goes on. That’s why they sell their engines at a higher cost. I am just a little two car garage guy that can sell my engines at much less than most but I don’t have any overhead. Food for thought
 

"J'-remy

Member
The predator isn’t going to kill the clone. The promoters are hurting the clone in areas where the predator is plentiful. They continue to give in to add ons and replacement parts instead of holding the line on out of the box engine. The 212 will not last as in a previous post because the 223 is waiting in the woods. If promoters would have left it alone and treated it the way it was intended the clone would be stronger than it is right now. The entire program was done incorrectly. BUT, that’s what ya get when promoters just want that bottom line.
I don't see it that way. Money is payed to the popular classes period. In our area there will be 10-12 predators in the 375 class. on several weekends there was NO heavy clones. maybe 3-4 in medium and that might include 1 375 racer who either races medium or goes home. why would the track reward the group that doesn't show up every weekend? who tells the track to pay big purses to clones? tradition? its not the large crowds or television sponsors. Who asked for the small pipe or the billet flywheel you need to find those people and shove a sock in their mouth. we run OTB predator with a 5000 rpm rule no plate no pump no pipe no flywheel etc. only rule to come along in the two years I've raced is no MIni gears. are we doing it right? I don't know. is the predator a bigger class than the clone? around here YES it is.
 

castshop

Member
predators are the way to go at ashway or godspeed good kart count lower cost. Motors where dynod and that is why the rpm was dropped to 5000 there is much less that can be done to cheat, if you want to spend alot of money on a predator i quess you could but on a good night you might win $100, i dont need to break down the cost we all know what it cost to race each week but at $100 did you win anything and where is your INTEGRITY. i think that was lost long time a go with many. when i race predators or someone like me with 30 years racing at ashway i must be cheating. tires tires tires in any class. only inspetion at ashway is visaul and it works. was there cheating probably but just buy a motor if you think it bad. if you want to cheat you can run rwyb with me but you will need to bring a big predator and tires.
 
I don't see it that way. Money is payed to the popular classes period. In our area there will be 10-12 predators in the 375 class. on several weekends there was NO heavy clones. maybe 3-4 in medium and that might include 1 375 racer who either races medium or goes home. why would the track reward the group that doesn't show up every weekend? who tells the track to pay big purses to clones? tradition? its not the large crowds or television sponsors.
Good point. I often wonder about the payout I see advertised for a track you comment on regularly. It seems the clone light class regularly has the best kart count and yet they never have money thrown their way. If I were a racer in that class I would feel slighted to continue to support the track and yet the racers that only show up for the money are rewarded with a decent purse. On the other hand, the payout at the other track you talk about (which seems to consistently have a better kart count) seems to be spread out throughout the classes and engine types including limiteds and flatheads. I'm guessing that has more to do with where the sponsors want to spend their money. The 3rd track that opened for a short while and is now shut down (hopefully back up next season) seemed to spread the money between clones and predators for the few weeks they were open.

With regards to the predator, is it a budget class, beginner class, or just a class with a different engine? I'm not sure how I'd handle it if I were a track owner. I'd like to reward the racers that support the track with some money races thrown their way. However, that strategy might tempt some racers to push some boundaries that interfere with the spirit of the class. It seems to be a slippery slope to travel. If you pick a path that other wants to follow then you chose correct for that moment in time. That very same methodology may turn off that group of racers a few months later, limit participation, or be wildly successful for years to come.

This is the 1st I'm hearing of a 223. What does that do for all of the 212's currently out there? I suspect things will get quite interesting if that engine becomes available "off the shelf" over the next few month's.
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
Good point. I often wonder about the payout I see advertised for a track you comment on regularly. It seems the clone light class regularly has the best kart count and yet they never have money thrown their way. If I were a racer in that class I would feel slighted to continue to support the track and yet the racers that only show up for the money are rewarded with a decent purse. On the other hand, the payout at the other track you talk about (which seems to consistently have a better kart count) seems to be spread out throughout the classes and engine types including limiteds and flatheads. I'm guessing that has more to do with where the sponsors want to spend their money. The 3rd track that opened for a short while and is now shut down (hopefully back up next season) seemed to spread the money between clones and predators for the few weeks they were open.

With regards to the predator, is it a budget class, beginner class, or just a class with a different engine? I'm not sure how I'd handle it if I were a track owner. I'd like to reward the racers that support the track with some money races thrown their way. However, that strategy might tempt some racers to push some boundaries that interfere with the spirit of the class. It seems to be a slippery slope to travel. If you pick a path that other wants to follow then you chose correct for that moment in time. That very same methodology may turn off that group of racers a few months later, limit participation, or be wildly successful for years to come.

This is the 1st I'm hearing of a 223. What does that do for all of the 212's currently out there? I suspect things will get quite interesting if that engine becomes available "off the shelf" over the next few month's.
The new track, from what I can hear is done and won't ever be back because of county code.
I agree, no money in our predator classes, they want money buy a clone and have at it.
Now hand out feature win stickers, and maybe have a bounty race if someone wins a couple weeks in a row, and make it so if you haven't ran the 2 weeks prior you aren't eligible, reward those that support the track week in and week out, Imo I'd do all.my money shows with a contingency that you had to run X amount of races at that track to be eligible.
And those 2 tracks need to work together or they'll water down participants at both tracks, or they may make the while crowd go to Kingsport
 

"J'-remy

Member
With regards to the predator, is it a budget class, beginner class, or just a class with a different engine? I'm not sure how I'd handle it if I were a track owner. I'd like to reward the racers that support the track with some money races thrown their way. However, that strategy might tempt some racers to push some boundaries that interfere with the spirit of the class. It seems to be a slippery slope to travel. If you pick a path that other wants to follow then you chose correct for that moment in time. That very same methodology may turn off that group of racers a few months later, limit participation, or be wildly successful for years to come.

This is the 1st I'm hearing of a 223. What does that do for all of the 212's currently out there? I suspect things will get quite interesting if that engine becomes available "off the shelf" over the next few month's.
I think this is a an interesting topic. I hate when they think its a beginner class. is it? then why is the local tire guy running three of his people in it? to some people they look at it as the easy money class when tracks offer 100% payback and the predators have the biggest counts. if the tracks we're smart they wouldn't let pros like Daniel Armstrong and Donnie Nall or big team drivers anywhere near this class. especially when they have their motor guys work their motors for free. its nothing form them to loose their motor in a claim when their motor guy builds them new every week. a National Level clone builder told me you can get a predator from him for $800 or get one for $150 at the track.
 
We heard the overhead during the flathead days.
Map on 206 is 599.00, how much you sell yours for? Fact is it's a sealed engine, shouldn't be anything to do except take it out of the box.
Plenty of builders building OTB predators charging 6-700 for them.
And don't give me that you'd make more working at McDonald's that's a load
MAP is $599....that's exactly what we sell them for (when we can actually get them in stock.) We sell our race-ready engines for $975, and dyno tuned for $1075.
As far as what can be done to them - certainly much less than what's going on with the OTB Predators.
You can cut the seats, valve job, set ignition timing and coil air gap, align the intake, set the valve lash, set up the carb, and tune the engine on a dyno --- that's pretty much it. We charge $100 labor. Same on rebuilds - $100 +parts (which are around $35.)
It's a great engine platform, but there's very little meat on the bone to be made by "builders" since there's really no blueprinting involved.
If all I did was build engines, and the L206 were the only engine we worked on, I could not pay the bills. BUT, our shop also sells a full line of kart supplies, tires, wheels, clutches, oil, bodies, etc...so with that and consumables, the L206 is a big part of our shop's business success.

Mickey D's is paying $15/hr. Yes, that is more than I make - it's no "load."
When you own your own business, there is no union, no cost of living raises, no sick days, or personal days. If you take time off, you don't get paid, simple as that. On the other hand, if you want to make more money, you work more hours.
80 hour work weeks are very common, especially from February through May.
Going on 32 years now full time and we've seen some good years and some lean years, and still no regrets. Many people make more money at their jobs, but can't stand their work. I enjoy what I do every day. It's hard to put a price on that. :)
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
MAP is $599....that's exactly what we sell them for (when we can actually get them in stock.) We sell our race-ready engines for $975, and dyno tuned for $1075.
As far as what can be done to them - certainly much less than what's going on with the OTB Predators.
You can cut the seats, valve job, set ignition timing and coil air gap, align the intake, set the valve lash, set up the carb, and tune the engine on a dyno --- that's pretty much it. We charge $100 labor. Same on rebuilds - $100 +parts (which are around $35.)
It's a great engine platform, but there's very little meat on the bone to be made by "builders" since there's really no blueprinting involved.
If all I did was build engines, and the L206 were the only engine we worked on, I could not pay the bills. BUT, our shop also sells a full line of kart supplies, tires, wheels, clutches, oil, bodies, etc...so with that and consumables, the L206 is a big part of our shop's business success.

Mickey D's is paying $15/hr. Yes, that is more than I make - it's no "load."
When you own your own business, there is no union, no cost of living raises, no sick days, or personal days. If you take time off, you don't get paid, simple as that. On the other hand, if you want to make more money, you work more hours.
80 hour work weeks are very common, especially from February through May.
Going on 32 years now full time and we've seen some good years and some lean years, and still no regrets. Many people make more money at their jobs, but can't stand their work. I enjoy what I do every day. It's hard to put a price on that. :)
Still a load, no way you would make more at McDonald's.
Funny an engine that's supposed to be better than the clone needs all that work to be competitive, good thing the bottom end is sealed or it would cost 2 grand or more
 

mike97760

Site Supporter
The new track, from what I can hear is done and won't ever be back because of county code.
I agree, no money in our predator classes, they want money buy a clone and have at it.
Now hand out feature win stickers, and maybe have a bounty race if someone wins a couple weeks in a row, and make it so if you haven't ran the 2 weeks prior you aren't eligible, reward those that support the track week in and week out, Imo I'd do all.my money shows with a contingency that you had to run X amount of races at that track to be eligible.
And those 2 tracks need to work together or they'll water down participants at both tracks, or they may make the while crowd go to Kingsport
I agree, especially the no money aspect of box stock Predators. Race for trophies or stickers with a low entry fee. The other classes will grow from the guys who like karting enough to move on to other classes. Weekly tracks and karting have benefitted from the influx of new racers in general and nothing else in karting has grown in quite a while. Leave it for the guys who dont run other classes. The guys who run clones and opens and now Predators too are whats going to stop the entry level racers from even trying..
 
I agree, especially the no money aspect of box stock Predators. Race for trophies or stickers with a low entry fee. The other classes will grow from the guys who like karting enough to move on to other classes. Weekly tracks and karting have benefitted from the influx of new racers in general and nothing else in karting has grown in quite a while. Leave it for the guys who dont run other classes. The guys who run clones and opens and now Predators too are whats going to stop the entry level racers from even trying..
Hey I didn't run one predator race this year🤣.
 
Still a load, no way you would make more at McDonald's.
Funny an engine that's supposed to be better than the clone needs all that work to be competitive, good thing the bottom end is sealed or it would cost 2 grand or more
Would you like a copy of my taxes, Jamie? LOL I asked for a list of all these builders getting rich that you talk about -- so far, it's just been me.
I can easily dispel that argument. :)
Have a Happy Thanksgiving regardless.
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
Would you like a copy of my taxes, Jamie? LOL I asked for a list of all these builders getting rich that you talk about -- so far, it's just been me.
I can easily dispel that argument. :)
Have a Happy Thanksgiving regardless.
Search race ready 206 and see for yourself, guys are selling 206s for several hundred more than you.
So dispel away all you want, 2 of them are on here.
What one make, and what one turns in is 2 different things
 
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kmoody6

Member
this is not what the local kart counts are saying. the only time you see good clone kart counts is when there are money races or points racing. the $99 motor package has become the big class as of late. the issue becomes the cheating as any rule set will just repeat the clone. the purse of that Woodleaf race just goes to show the tracks are putting up money in the predator class and the pros are running them too (because of its popularity). the lap times show nobody is playing by the rules, and these are big names who are up on their tire game. its obvious everyone in that race had a built motor, when the predator is $1300 what's the point in having two classes?
Weren't any pros in predator. They were in clone 390
 

"J'-remy

Member
Weren't any pros in predator. They were in clone 390
Austin Banker and Daniel Armstrong were in the Predator 390. do you consider these two to be just a couple of sat night racers? I don't believe ether of these guys pay for chassis or motors. but no I'm not talking about Michael Schumacher or Lewis Hamilton in a predator race.
 
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