racing promotor
Moderator
I'm not saying the tool is not needed, I'm saying it was my understanding nothing so far had been deemed illegal because there is no tool, if you can see no defined edge why not based on that alone.
Attention All Certified Tech
- Thread starter DynoDon
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rebsfan4
Member
It's inevitable there will be a cost incurred by someone. We have to ask ourselves this......
How many people, who can afford it, have bought the heads or an engine with the head, at the inflated price for the head AS COMPARED to the average Joe who doesn't even know there's even such a head in existence.
Personally, I don't think AKRA should look at it as who has the head already and would have to replace it but, rather who DOESN'T have the head and would need to get it. I'd bet a 40 hour paycheck that if you total out of pocket expenses, comparing those who'd have to replace an illegal head they have to those average Joe's who don't have the illegal head but need to then buy the head, the average Joe's would far out total the rest. I'd also be willing to stake my boat on the fact that, while some may not know they have an illegal head, a lot more actually know they do. Common sense is telling me that the people who can afford it, know what they actually have.
In the end, somebody is going to be mad. Somebody isn't going to be happy. IF the right thing is done, it won't be the average Joe having to pay for it in the long run. Because, if the wrong thing is done, and we pacify the builders, YET AGAIN, everybody will have to upgrade and the builder will be smiling from ear to ear every time their bank account goes cha-ching with every purchase that every average Joe will have to make, if they want to keep up the Joneses.
AKRA needs to do the right thing here. Keep the rule as is. Get the tool made to check the heads as the rules are now. I'd rather spend my hard earned money on a tech tool than to see ANOTHER engine builder get away with out right cheating, only to have the rules amended in their favor. If it can't be done, we might as well throw the rule book in the trash and make every class a RWYB class.
How many people, who can afford it, have bought the heads or an engine with the head, at the inflated price for the head AS COMPARED to the average Joe who doesn't even know there's even such a head in existence.
Personally, I don't think AKRA should look at it as who has the head already and would have to replace it but, rather who DOESN'T have the head and would need to get it. I'd bet a 40 hour paycheck that if you total out of pocket expenses, comparing those who'd have to replace an illegal head they have to those average Joe's who don't have the illegal head but need to then buy the head, the average Joe's would far out total the rest. I'd also be willing to stake my boat on the fact that, while some may not know they have an illegal head, a lot more actually know they do. Common sense is telling me that the people who can afford it, know what they actually have.
In the end, somebody is going to be mad. Somebody isn't going to be happy. IF the right thing is done, it won't be the average Joe having to pay for it in the long run. Because, if the wrong thing is done, and we pacify the builders, YET AGAIN, everybody will have to upgrade and the builder will be smiling from ear to ear every time their bank account goes cha-ching with every purchase that every average Joe will have to make, if they want to keep up the Joneses.
AKRA needs to do the right thing here. Keep the rule as is. Get the tool made to check the heads as the rules are now. I'd rather spend my hard earned money on a tech tool than to see ANOTHER engine builder get away with out right cheating, only to have the rules amended in their favor. If it can't be done, we might as well throw the rule book in the trash and make every class a RWYB class.
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I'm saying 'does it make a difference ?'
I had all my seats cut on a Bridgeport with a
tool made to do 60/45/30 all in one pass.
Not caring what the angles on the seat are,
except for the 45* will eliminate the source of the
argument.
I seriously doubt there is a phenomenal HP increase
at 75*. Air doesn't like to change direction more than
9/10* at a time. Too large a transition will breakup any
laminar flow you might have.
So yeah, it would be fine with me. Most are gonna have
to pay someone to cut their seats anyway.
I had all my seats cut on a Bridgeport with a
tool made to do 60/45/30 all in one pass.
Not caring what the angles on the seat are,
except for the 45* will eliminate the source of the
argument.
I seriously doubt there is a phenomenal HP increase
at 75*. Air doesn't like to change direction more than
9/10* at a time. Too large a transition will breakup any
laminar flow you might have.
So yeah, it would be fine with me. Most are gonna have
to pay someone to cut their seats anyway.
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Your answer is YES! You only see small changes on flow bench but taken to the Dyno is where you'll see the different. Of course it all depends on the porting job. I've seen the the same head builders heads on big name builders. Different porting! Huge Dyno Number differences in the different builders on the dyno and small changes on Flow bench.
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You're kinda making my point. Ports were out of control so
we now allow porting in order to just do away with the problem.
Not everyone can do/get a NasCar quality porting job, but anybody
can get a 30/45/75 valve job.
Do valves/seats. One less thing.
In post 104 I mentioned dynoing 60* vs 75*
we now allow porting in order to just do away with the problem.
Not everyone can do/get a NasCar quality porting job, but anybody
can get a 30/45/75 valve job.
Do valves/seats. One less thing.
In post 104 I mentioned dynoing 60* vs 75*
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Burris Racer
Member
I agree the head in question did not flow very well. I believe it was the porting configuration in that head and not the angles in the seats. I have heads that did flow well with a different porting configuration and the same angles in the seats!!! As I have said I have seen Great flowing heads from this builder. Yet different heads from the same builder have terrible flow numbers with a completely different porting configuration.
Raging Bull Engines
Member
A while back I ended up with a head in a box of junk a customer brought me that was destroyed when the head broke off the exhaust valve. He said the head was "very expensive" and one of the best out there. He wanted me to try to figure what if anything was special about it. I cut the intake seat in half with a cutoff wheel to get it out of the head. Looking at the intake seat from the end of the cut in an optical comparator it looked like it was cut with a blade that is very close to, but not exactly like this blade I just happened to have laying around in the shop for some reason. The difference being that there was a radius where the 60 transitioned to the 75. It didn't look weird when looking at it from above when it was still in the head. If really didn't set of any red flags visually. The head did not come from anyone mentioned in this thread. That's all I got to add
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CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Coming up with a tool that can measure the depth, width, and degree of a specific valve angle set in a cast head is not the easiest of tasks either -- nor is it to interpret its use in the tech barn to make a definitive call.
I've seen valve seats cut with a cutter similar to the one you've shown, and have also seen the "infinite radius" seat cutters.
There IS an advantage in flow and HP. I can't speak for the clone engines specifically because I simply don't work on enough of them to have a good data set.
Also, it's hard for me to believe that any builder is smoothing the inside radius enough that you can feel/see it in tech, yet it doesn't flow better. Good and bad port work aside. That inside radius is critical to air flow. That's the whole reason we have a "defined edge" rule!
As tech men (and most of us are engine builders as well,) we are put in yet another precarious position on this deal.
It's nothing new though -- we have had the problem of unenforceable rules (ie no tools or specific measurements to go by) for many years in this sport. Give us some measurements to go by, and we can both build and enforce them in tech. Without measurements and tools, this is what is bound to happen.
With that said...a Big "thank you" to all who are willing to be tech men in our sport...and to Don, Tuttle, Lewis, and others who are working on this deal to make it better. The "easy" answer in all of our eyes, is not always so easy to implement, unfortunately.
-----
Thanks and God bless,Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
33 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
So then what do the rules say on the short side radius, or the valve pocket in general. Does the defined edge rule cover the entire port? What porting is allowed in akra stock clones?
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bomber315
Member
Don, can you get more than usual rulebooks this year and supply us with them please? I would even be willing to pay you a handling fee if it meant I didn't have to try and contact akra headquarters. They may as well not even have a phone, they never answer it or call back.