BSP 212 shortblocks running against 196 Clones?

1fasttiller

Member
Hypothetical question, but if one suspected another racer of running a 212 long block in the regular clone classes where there is very little tech, other than restrictor plate checks with a flashlight through the carb, what are some other dead giveaways of this? From what I understand, they appear identical to the 196 clone with all the sheet metal on? I'm thinking the extra few CC's would be quite an advantage in a restrictor plate class?

And yes, we can protest but its a $200 fee and I don't have the extra $200 laying around... but when a purple plate kart can be sideways through the turns and still pull a half track lead, tells me something is amiss....
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
Not sure about the dyno 212 . When they first came out there were a few posts about this . Seems like the number of fins on the block , difference in the top plate mounts the laser etched data on the front . And something on the head. Pretty sure the exhausht studs are spaced farther apart quick check with a caliper there .
 

Big Chris

Member
IF, and this is an IF, the person was using the big valve head that comes with the 212, then there would be obvious physical differences. This pic below shows the casting numbers from the box stock 212 head. The head is slightly taller and the cooling fins on the head are different.

But also know that the regular clone head will fit on to the 212 block from box stock. For example the 223, 181, 155 heads will bolt onto the 212 block. And if the person was using a 196cc clone head, then the only way to know is the difference without tearing the engine down is to measure the stroke through the spark plug hole. Because the 212cc stroke is 1mm (.039") longer than the 196cc. Dyno Don made a tech tool for this. I have one and using it is about as straight forward as it gets. Might wanna check with him (Don) if you could rent or buy this tool.

The exterior of the block and the crank taper are the same between the two platforms. It is essentially the clone with a +1mm stoke and a +2mm bore.

212 bore and stroke is 70x55mm

196 bore and stroke 68x54mm

This below pic is from March 2018, when I got a 212 to do some testing with. I still have this engine. So there may be casting changes since then.

Now for some of my unfinished thoughts on the topic: Firstly I never will condone knowingly cheating (including "stealth porting"). That said, I do think that the evolution of the clone engine should move toward the 212 platform. I mean as racers, we always want the bigger engine. IMO this would allow the consolidation of the predator and the clone classes. Effectively creating a single class of up to 212cc which includes the existing clone, the Box Stock 212 Platform, the Dyno 212 platform and the Predator. Because IMO all the Predator is doing is diluting karting with yet another engine platform. And quite frankly what has harbor freight done to help our sport? < end rant.



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flattop1

Dawg 89
Of course there is also this .
Stock Project Engine (Assembled in the USA!) with all high quality hand picked Box Stock Project parts to include the following; (NEW) JT head, hardened heat treated crankshaft guaranteed (2.163-2.173) tapered to fit all 196cc clone flywheels, T6 Treated performance cast 5 over rod, New BSP-4 camshaft, Ultra light weight lifters (18-18.3 grams), T6 Treated stock light weight piston (2.756 or 70mm) with light weight wrist pin, BSP block (2.756) and side cover, highest quality P6 bearings, high quality side cover gasket, Throttle Return Spring and Pull Rod. NEW (Race Ready Ruixing Carburetor, Tuned and Jetted Main .038", Low Speed .022")

The crank shaft journal is the same size as the one for the 196cc motor which allows you to run the same rods. We use the 5 over performance stock rod in our 212cc motors.

http://boxstockproject.com

All your accesories that bolt to your 196cc BSP clone or other 6.5hp motors will interchange with this one.

Choose your color-Yellow or Black Blower housing, Crank rope, Large metal shroud, and Valve cover. (Does not include Flywheel, top plate, air filter adapter, chain guard, fuel pump, air filter.)

For more info or if you have a specific engine application in mind that we do not have listed, give us a call and we can make it happen. 386-938-4211.
 

1fasttiller

Member
Of course there is also this .
Stock Project Engine (Assembled in the USA!) with all high quality hand picked Box Stock Project parts to include the following; (NEW) JT head, hardened heat treated crankshaft guaranteed (2.163-2.173) tapered to fit all 196cc clone flywheels, T6 Treated performance cast 5 over rod, New BSP-4 camshaft, Ultra light weight lifters (18-18.3 grams), T6 Treated stock light weight piston (2.756 or 70mm) with light weight wrist pin, BSP block (2.756) and side cover, highest quality P6 bearings, high quality side cover gasket, Throttle Return Spring and Pull Rod. NEW (Race Ready Ruixing Carburetor, Tuned and Jetted Main .038", Low Speed .022")

The crank shaft journal is the same size as the one for the 196cc motor which allows you to run the same rods. We use the 5 over performance stock rod in our 212cc motors.

http://boxstockproject.com

All your accesories that bolt to your 196cc BSP clone or other 6.5hp motors will interchange with this one.

Choose your color-Yellow or Black Blower housing, Crank rope, Large metal shroud, and Valve cover. (Does not include Flywheel, top plate, air filter adapter, chain guard, fuel pump, air filter.)

For more info or if you have a specific engine application in mind that we do not have listed, give us a call and we can make it happen. 386-938-4211.
Flattop- thats the one that has me questioning things.... seems like it would be very hard to tell unless a full teardown was done.
 

Big Chris

Member
Guys, stop for a minute and think. Stroke is determined by the crank's throw, not the length of the rod. So you can still detect the 212 by it's +1mm stroke. Because the 2.163 - 2.173 crank mentioned above is the 55mm (+1mm) stroke crank.

One could however build the 212 block with a 196 crank, deck the block and gain the +2mm bore. This would yield a 208cc hybrid where you had a 54mm stroke and a 70mm bore. The only way to find this one is to take the head off and measure bore.
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
The visual difference is what he is looking for .
I think originally there were some , now with the new spec manufactured engines its probably un likely .
 

1fasttiller

Member
Exactly, I was trying to see if I could identify visually without full teardown. Sadly I think we'll just have to move on to another track. I don't like racing where even my 11 year old son knows something is off.
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
Always pool the racers cash for protest .
Count the fins and look for the laser etching on the block .
Managment ?
 

OVALTECH1

Premium User
If it’s a BSP motor the serial number etched on the front will tell you which it is .
 

DynoDon

Moderator
I will look through some of my pics. I thought I had a pic of the fins on the back of the block that identify the difference
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
This may be a possibility.
If the original pull starters are still on them, the model numbers are normally noted on the Decal.
 

OVALTECH1

Premium User
They etch serial numbers in the front of the block by the oil fill plug
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
True . And switch pullers out .
But ya never know .
So if the serial numbers scratched up or out , its a pretty good give away .
If they fail you get your money back ?
Lot of clone pages too go through for that info , if it hasn't fallen off the list .
 

1fasttiller

Member
Oh there is no glaring differences, I've looked at the motors on the grid. This is of course just speculation guys. I could be way off base but I also just don't see a restricted kart that is sideways through all corners of the track outrunning the entire field by a straightaway...

Thank you for all the insight and advice. We race there tonight and I'm hoping I'll get to talk to the tech guy a little.
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
If you can get close enough to look at blocks, the hemi blocks all have g200 on the front of them stamped/etched near the oil sensor hole, and non hemi blocks have R210III marked in that same spot, its a clear fool proof way to tell the difference

Easiest way to tell is the hemi motor has a dull, rough almost sandblasted finish. The non Hemi's have a more smooth and slightly shiny finish. U put a non hemi head on a hemi motor and it is pretty obvious. But as stated above, the markings on the block will tell u. But from a distance look at the finish of the block and head. U can tell if they don't match.
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
Predators are a dead giveaway by the markings on front of the block....non hemi all have R210III stamped on front and hemi's all have G200 stamped on the front....both near the oil sensor hole. These Ducar 212's may have the same type of stamping on the front of the block, or something similar at least, to mark them as a 212cc. One look at the front of the block should give it away. (...clones have not came with oil sensors for years....)
 

krtracer44

Member
Also 1 fast tiller ..you also said in another post that you were gonna run your ported head ..at a track that has told you that there a no porting track ..just about every track in Florida is a no port rule ..all because of the arka rule book ..so thinking others are cheating and I'm sure there is with tech that goes no deeper than the carb ...I'd definitely would make sure that your motor is legal also .
 
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