Burris 33's vs Cobra tires

[Burris Racer]

In fact, I'd suggest that Burris spec tire racing requires the most tires, and is the most costly, because of having to have current date code tires, every different profile cut and amount of roundness, tread depth, duro, and prep amount. That's created due to the tire design and thick rubber tread.
Then, if we go to a Burris race that doesn't require current date code stuff, we'll have tires as old as 10 years with us in the trailer, and they may be the fastest -- which is why most of the bigger Burris races now require newer date code stuff -- to prevent a guy like me who has a library of older tires to choose from having an advantage over someone newer to the sport or has less access to good older tires.

I agree the selection of tires I choose to have for Burris SS33A's is quite extensive and costly.

I don't understand the reasoning behind a compound or date code rule with Burris tires. Maybe it's a good thing. I truly don't know. Why not allow any Burris slick? There are tracks allowing any 33. I don't see that being any different than allowing an 11,22,44, or 55. I'm only familiar with 1 series that has a date code rule (right sides only going back 2 years + current year. Left sides are open date ). I believe the date rule is the promoter catering to Maxxis racers that they are wanting to race their series. I didn't see a track on the schedule that a tire older than what was permissible would have been an advantage.

 

[CarlsonMotorsports]

I agree the selection of tires I choose to have for Burris SS33A's is quite extensive and costly.

I don't understand the reasoning behind a compound or date code rule with Burris tires. Maybe it's a good thing. I truly don't know. Why not allow any Burris slick? There are tracks allowing any 33. I don't see that being any different than allowing an 11,22,44, or 55. I'm only familiar with 1 series that has a date code rule (right sides only going back 2 years + current year. Left sides are open date ). I believe the date rule is the promoter catering to Maxxis racers that they are wanting to race their series. I didn't see a track on the schedule that a tire older than what was permissible would have been an advantage.

I can't tell you the motivation of the compound and date code rule -- I can tell you the "perception," and that is to sell more tires and prohibit guys using older date code stuff that could be an advantage. Regardless of the reason, that's been the case with several series.
Most Burris tracks allow any Burris -- some dictate 33As only, but any date code is fine. I don't have a problem with tire rules as long as the faithful points racers at that track or series want that rule. We cut and prep more Burris tires than probably all other brands combined through our shop - and for that, I am very thankful. It's nice to be able to offer Burris & Hoosier (both American made) tires.
If the real motivation for a specific brand, compound, date code is cost...then mandating a rule that states you must run the same two right side tires all night long is the most cost effective.
The current trend (and has been for a few years now) with Burris in the midwest is to kill them with a harsh prep right before going to the grid/ Then throw fresh sets of tires and repeat each time you go on the track. Those tires now need to cure out for a couple of weeks before they'll be fast again. I know, not everyone preps this way -- but a whole lot do. For a Saturday night track that runs every weekend - this means that the minimum number of sets of tires you can have is 6 sets. Now, with harsh preps, you'll kill those tires in a season, so you're buying new tires and having them cut for that track, every year. And good luck selling 1-2 year old used harsh prepped Burris that are already showing signs of dry-rot from the chems used on them.

There are alternative preps that can allow you to run that same set of Burris all night and be competitive. Ask me how I know.
Getting guys to change brands of preps can be as challenging as changing brands of tires.

 

[CarlsonMotorsports]

I don't know a whole lot about the "tire Game" But Ashway is a Burris Track and so are the other tracks around the east Tennessee Area. I know Burris tires are expensive compared to most but I'm not spending money on three sets of tires every week to be competitive and don't want to That will just price me out of karting. . Burris is made in The USA and i'd rather spend my money here than overseas and that includes those made in Malaysia maxxis tires . That person we almost lapped was probably not the best racer out there. but I'm not looking to promote anything that's gonna drive my costs up. If Burris really wanted to take over maybe they should look into making tires that fit today's rims or maybe come up with a stiffer side wall. If anyone want's to keep people out of karting then yes they should go and throw monkey wrenches into their program like allowing another tire brand or allowing mods to predators. Sounds like an awesome idea

I guess I don't understand your argument.
You want to run tires made in the USA, but you run a $100 engine made in China.
You want to keep the cost down, but are against using a cheaper tire.
You claimed elsewhere in this thread that you'd need 3 sets of Maxxis per month to run at Ashway.
(I don't think that's accurate at all, but hey, I've never seen Maxxis run at Ashway)...but then again, Maxxis are not the tire in question, Cobras are.
Then you talk about the cost of tires for $20,000 to win races with big name sponsored drivers participating.
Again, I'm not drawing the connection. You run at a local track in the Predator class with Burris tires and you're comparing to racing for $20Gs?

I'm not trying to be critical of you, sorry if I come across that way, just trying to understand your point.

 

["J'-remy]

ill address your questions in order.
no I would prefer the Briggs L206 program and one sanctioning body for all of the south east Dirt speedways and that would include running one tire brand. I would like animal limited modifieds and animal open engines as well as an amature class two year limet
lets look at the recent history in karting
in comes the Animal engine and prices soar to 1200.00 people complain about the price and in comes the Box Stock Project with an
'economic solution"
in comes the "CLONE" and prices soar to 1200.00 people complain about the price and in comes the Harbor Freight with the Predator a nice 'economic solution'
currently to be the pros are running $800 tricked up predators in the Carolinas
Now its all about tires and how many you have the tires boxes the racks the chemicals the rollers the sanders the lathes the trailers but wait i see you complain about the price of your tires guess what? there is another
"economic solution"
and you are asking me what my argument is?

 

[jaymancds]

ill address your questions in order.
no I would prefer the Briggs L206 program and one sanctioning body for all of the south east Dirt speedways and that would include running one tire brand. I would like animal limited modifieds and animal open engines as well as an amature class two year limet
lets look at the recent history in karting
in comes the Animal engine and prices soar to 1200.00 people complain about the price and in comes the Box Stock Project with an
'economic solution"
in comes the "CLONE" and prices soar to 1200.00 people complain about the price and in comes the Harbor Freight with the Predator a nice 'economic solution'
currently to be the pros are running $800 tricked up predators in the Carolinas
Now its all about tires and how many you have the tires boxes the racks the chemicals the rollers the sanders the lathes the trailers but wait i see you complain about the price of your tires guess what? there is another
"economic solution"
and you are asking me what my argument is?

I think Brian was pointing out that you are racing the cheapest class there is, and then to "prove" your point you're referencing the expenses involved with running for $20K payouts. He also is questioning the idea that you need 3 new sets of maxxis every month, which unless you're using goat every week, probably isn't true.

You're talking about racing Predator on the local/regional level with burris tires, and comparing that to cobras, that are $100 cheaper per set than burris. You can almost buy 2 sets of cobras for the price of a new set of burris. To prove your point, you are referencing the best of the best, who probably dont pay for any of their equipment anyway. You can't do both.

Are you running an $800 predator? Are you a pro? Do you have the budget for tons of tires? If you answered no to any of these questions, then you need to just figure out what works for you. Don't compare yourself to the pros if you arent a pro, they do things that you dont need to worry about. Don't concern yourself with other people's engines if you aren't willing to spend what they do, you've said in the past that you dont cheat up your predator and still run up front, so what's your beef? Don't worry about the number of tires you have in the trailer, learn how to use what you have.

Your whole argument seems to be based on something that you don't compete in. If I'm wrong about that then my apologies, but a weekend warrior can NOT compare themselves to those who race for a living.

 

["J'-remy]

I think Brian was pointing out that you are racing the cheapest class there is, and then to "prove" your point you're referencing the expenses involved with running for $20K payouts. He also is questioning the idea that you need 3 new sets of maxxis every month, which unless you're using goat every week, probably isn't true.

You're talking about racing Predator on the local/regional level with burris tires, and comparing that to cobras, that are $100 cheaper per set than burris. You can almost buy 2 sets of cobras for the price of a new set of burris. To prove your point, you are referencing the best of the best, who probably dont pay for any of their equipment anyway. You can't do both.

Are you running an $800 predator? Are you a pro? Do you have the budget for tons of tires? If you answered no to any of these questions, then you need to just figure out what works for you. Don't compare yourself to the pros if you arent a pro, they do things that you dont need to worry about. Don't concern yourself with other people's engines if you aren't willing to spend what they do, you've said in the past that you dont cheat up your predator and still run up front, so what's your beef? Don't worry about the number of tires you have in the trailer, learn how to use what you have.

Your whole argument seems to be based on something that you don't compete in. If I'm wrong about that then my apologies, but a weekend warrior can NOT compare themselves to those who race for a living.

What works for Ashway are old hard tires and I buy used ones from my local kart shop and they last a long time (as in several years like until the cords show and their still fast). If i wanted to only race at Ashway at a local level in the predator class I would need to spend $0. If cobras are faster (witch i have not seen to be the case) to be competitive at a local lever i will now need to spend $271 on wheels and tires and all my burrs tires are now paperweights.
a used set of three on wheels is 230.00 for me. if i need to purchase multiple sets of cobra tires a year my tire budget keeps going up.
Is this not making sense?
If Ashway decided to make the predator class run on cobra tires and only cobra tires that would be one thing but the fact that there are now 2 tires to me is the problem either make it no tire rule and i or a one tire rule that's my issue nothing else.
I don't think much of pros who need to cheat to win.
the kart counts were higher when their were fewer choices scattered across the country

 

[jaymancds]

What works for Ashway are old hard tires and I buy used ones from my local kart shop and they last a long time (as in several years like until the cords show and their still fast). If i wanted to only race at Ashway at a local level in the predator class I would need to spend $0. If cobras are faster (witch i have not seen to be the case) to be competitive at a local lever i will now need to spend $271 on wheels and tires and all my burrs tires are now paperweights.
a used set of three on wheels is 230.00 for me. if i need to purchase multiple sets of cobra tires a year my tire budget keeps going up.
Is this not making sense?
If Ashway decided to make the predator class run on cobra tires and only cobra tires that would be one thing but the fact that there are now 2 tires to me is the problem either make it no tire rule and i or a one tire rule that's my issue nothing else.
I don't think much of pros who need to cheat to win.
the kart counts were higher when their were fewer choices scattered across the country

So you would be ok with an open tire rule, but not a This or That tire rule? That doesnt make any sense. By your logic, an open tire rule would cost you more as now youd need maxxis, burris, cobra, and vegas to have a chance to win. That takes more than just 2 options.

The top of any racing is full of what people call cheaters. Look at Nascar, or any other professional racing divisions, people get busted all of the time. Its how you stay at the top, you push the envelope.

I also dont believe your kart count idea, my local track is open tire, slightly modified predators, and NKA rules for everything else. 2020 kart count average was 165, and by far the largest year they have ever had since they opened in 2014.

 

[Kj26]

So you would be ok with an open tire rule, but not a This or That tire rule? That doesnt make any sense. By your logic, an open tire rule would cost you more as now youd need maxxis, burris, cobra, and vegas to have a chance to win. That takes more than just 2 options.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

["J'-remy]

if it were an open tire rule and i only raced at one track then i would pick the one tire that worked and would not need to have multiple brands .
in the mid to late nineties At Dumplin Valley in TN you would see on average at a non paying Saturday night Over 10 amateurs, 5-7 limited modifieds, a feild of around 10 in the 305 lite class 20 in the 335 medium class and 10 -15 people in the 360 heavy class. the compitition was good and the racing was clean and people came from all over. and if you thought someone was cheating you could protest it and find out. today i see races with only 2 people. there are two many classes and engines. wouldn't you want those 3 people in medium predator fill up the medium clone class? so there were 6 people racing or is three on three more exciting for you. Plus you would make it home before 1 in the morning.
Again We are talking about Ashway not your track. time and time again is see people shooting themselves in the foot. I have an idea why they're doing it i'm just not going to say it out loud.

 

["J'-remy]

Liberty is open tire do you see the track full of multiple brands?

 

[jaymancds]

Liberty is open tire do you see the track full of multiple brands?

If you know what to do with your Burris at your track, and they open it to cobras, who says you have to buy any cobras? You can watch others to determine what is and is not working. In your case, where you need a harder tire, cobras probably wont be great anyhow.

You either support a tire rule (which in most cases that I've seen its typically maxxis), or you support an open tire rule, which gives you options as a racer. You can't really support both.

 

["J'-remy]

to be absolutely clear Yes i will purchase a set of cobras and see how they go. But that doesn't mean i have to like it or that I can't complain about it . Racing is expensive enough without any added costs that's all.

 

[Kj26]

if it were an open tire rule and i only raced at one track then i would pick the one tire that worked and would not need to have multiple brands .

We race at a few open tire tracks and on any given day Burris, Cobras, Maxxis and Vegas are winning. It’s all based on track prep and weather, so there is no 1 tire to pick unless your just racing to race.

 

[jaymancds]

We race at a few open tire tracks and on any given day Burris, Cobras, Maxxis and Vegas are winning. It’s all based on track prep and weather, so there is no 1 tire to pick unless your just racing to race.

Personally, I feel like any track at any time can work with any tire so long as that tire is prepped right for the circumstances. I could be wrong, but I think more people miss their tires with the wrong chemicals than tire brand.

 

[racing promotor]

We race at a few open tire tracks and on any given day Burris, Cobras, Maxxis and Vegas are winning. It’s all based on track prep and weather, so there is no 1 tire to pick unless your just racing to race.

Which is why it's always puzzled me some guy's say open tire rule saves money !!

 

[Kj26]

Which is why it's always puzzled me some guy's say open tire rule saves money !!

Exactly, but that’s also the same issue with an open Burris rule. A track we used to run was always an 11 track, now you need a few sets of each (11,22,33) but your racing for $40 lol.

 

[racing promotor]

Exactly, but that’s also the same issue with an open Burris rule. A track we used to run was always an 11 track, now you need a few sets of each (11,22,33) but your racing for $40 lol.

I hear ya BUT if it were open tire, till you covered Maxxis 3 ways, Vegas 3 ways, Cobras 3 ways, you'd be in the same boat actually worse cause you'd still have some burris !!
This is why when I ran Lil g event though it was any Burris slick for Fri night show I prepped the track to stay 11s, so everyone knew they only needed 11s, there was a few seasons I supplied tires for 3 different kids, I had a set of 2007 11s with 56 feature wins with them.

 

[Lightning3]

What works for Ashway are old hard tires and I buy used ones from my local kart shop and they last a long time (as in several years like until the cords show and their still fast). If i wanted to only race at Ashway at a local level in the predator class I would need to spend $0. If cobras are faster (witch i have not seen to be the case) to be competitive at a local lever i will now need to spend $271 on wheels and tires and all my burrs tires are now paperweights

We race at Ashway regularly in clone. I agree on most weekends in the summer a hard tire is what works. However brand new tires killed it in the spring and fall.

There's one team there that wins often, and has won on both brands of tire, that suggested there will be a time and place for both brands of tire. This team also sells tire services . I don't think there will be a huge difference if you have a selection of Burris' to choose from. I'm not sure what drove the decision to allow both brands. It could be coincidence but at the time they started allowing Cobra's you couldn't get new Burris tires. Some view the Predator class as a budget class. The track is offering the competitor a choice to buy a new budget tire or a used set of Burris for roughly the same price. It'll be interesting to see if it's "monkey see monkey do" or everyone just does their own thing. We may run a few Predator races this season. All depends on kart turnout.

 

[CarlsonMotorsports]

ill address your questions in order.
no I would prefer the Briggs L206 program and one sanctioning body for all of the south east Dirt speedways and that would include running one tire brand. I would like animal limited modifieds and animal open engines as well as an amature class two year limet
lets look at the recent history in karting
in comes the Animal engine and prices soar to 1200.00 people complain about the price and in comes the Box Stock Project with an
'economic solution"
in comes the "CLONE" and prices soar to 1200.00 people complain about the price and in comes the Harbor Freight with the Predator a nice 'economic solution'
currently to be the pros are running $800 tricked up predators in the Carolinas
Now its all about tires and how many you have the tires boxes the racks the chemicals the rollers the sanders the lathes the trailers but wait i see you complain about the price of your tires guess what? there is another
"economic solution"
and you are asking me what my argument is?

Prices didn't "soar" to $1200 with the animal, they basically started there. Prices had been "soaring" with the flathead for years to the point that they were around $1000, and the animal was introduced (or forced, depending on how you look at it) with a price tag the same as the flathead. It was a lateral move price-wise, and many racers didn't embrace the animal from the beginning. Then there were issues with blocks, rods (even ARC), changing flywheels, etc that continued to hamper the animal gaining popularity. Meanwhile, both animal and flathead prices continued to escalate. Along came the $99 HF engine and tracks in your backyard adopted it, and the rest of your account is pretty much spot on.

Now, suggestion: You obviously like the L206 (as do I.)
Why not start a class of them? You can even spec the tires if you'd like -- Burris 33A would be a good choice since most racers in your area already have those. New racers coming in could just purchase a new or used kart, purchase a new 206 engine and purchase new Burris tires and be able to run with your new class. You could even spec the chassis if you want spec everything.
I'd even help sponsor the class if you want help getting it off the ground.
Get together 5 guys willing to start the class and we'll price up a package price for everyone involved.
Even if you don't go the spec chassis route, you'll be on equal engines & equal tires. You could even make a rule that you run the same set of tires all year to force everyone to save money by prohibiting them from running multiple sets.
There are ways to make karting cheap(er) but racing will never be cheap.

 

[Burris Racer]

Exactly, but that’s also the same issue with an open Burris rule. A track we used to run was always an 11 track, now you need a few sets of each (11,22,33) but your racing for $40 lol.

Which is why it's always puzzled me some guy's say open tire rule saves money !!

I'm interested to hear more on this subject. When I 1st got involved in kart racing my local tracks had an open tire rule but it had to be a slick. Most people that were competitive carried yellow Vegas, SS11's and SS22 or SS33. We moved to a different region of the country and it's predominately Burris SS33A tire only. On occasion, some tracks allow any 33. At 1st I didn't care for the tire rule and found another hobby but eventually came back to kart racing. I was sold on only needing a few sets of tires to cycle out every other week. A few years into spec tire racing my tire inventory consistently consists of 20+ sets of SS33A's while running 2-3 classes. Thinking through it I actually prefer the spec rule because I understand the differences in age, thickness, duro, prep, etc (Sometimes I wish I did better at choosing what tire to use. LOL).

The question is, if it were an open Burris slick rule could I reduce my inventory by carrying a couple different compounds? I'm guessing the answer is no but I wouldn't think I'd need more tires.

When I started this post there were 2 variables (clone v predator and Burris v Cobra) that I was looking to gain insight on. I appreciate everyone's input on these subjects and expanding the conversation to other areas. As you can see from my example above (preferred open tire rule and have since changed to preferring the spec tire) I try to keep an open mind and learn from others on this forum.