Camber - Caster pill

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
The ones that are available are okay, in a pinch, but what do you think of this idea? 6° of Castor adjustment and 5° of camber adjustment. The one pictured has 0 camber and 3° of Castor. By replacing the inserts, a lot of adjustment can be made that won't change on you during the race. By moving the washers you can change the ride height of the frame. To change the camber or Castor, you would need different inserts.
 

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alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
Thats old style Al. Todays karts are heim joints and "L" blocks, which allow adjustments much more easier, with lots more adjustment.
"Old-style", show me pictures.
After I drew this up I discovered there was someone else making an item that did similar things, in a different way, and the Europeans are adapting it to their karts.
 

JPMKarting

Site Supporter
"Old-style", show me pictures.
After I drew this up I discovered there was someone else making an item that did similar things, in a different way, and the Europeans are adapting it to their karts.

Oval chassis builders started with this in the early to mid 1990's, and continued up into the early 2000's. At that point, the L Block and/or dual heim front end was designed, making the pill style obsolete.

The pills are a pain...they take too long to change, and are not accurate. Just because the pill says -3, doesn't mean you will have -3 camber.
 

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
The pills are a pain...they take too long to change, and are not accurate. Just because the pill says -3, doesn't mean you will have -3 camber.
That's very interesting. Why would that be? I could see it if the frame was bent, or the pill was mismarked, but other than that, how could they be off?
 

JPMKarting

Site Supporter
Flexed out parts, different tire sizes/brands, spindle height.

All of that plays a part in the camber readings. The pills cant account for all of those variables.
 

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
Flexed out parts, different tire sizes/brands, spindle height.
"Flexed out", is that the same is wore out? I can see that being a problem. Hard for me to see how tire size and brand could have anything to do with setting camber and castor. Must be my lack of experience with dirt cars.
 

JPMKarting

Site Supporter
"Flexed out", is that the same is wore out? I can see that being a problem. Hard for me to see how tire size and brand could have anything to do with setting camber and castor. Must be my lack of experience with dirt cars.

Yes, wore out.

Larger RF tire is going to put more rake in the chassis, thus changing camber. Softer spring rate tire will collapse more and change camber. It all has an effect.
 

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
They are....but I can adjust a lock nut on a heim a lot quicker then I can change a pill. The heim doesnt have a pre-determined innacurate setting like a pill.
Why do you say "inaccurate"? With today's machining technology, I'm pretty certain I could make those pills with dead on accuracy. I'm a CAD/CAM knowledgeable, CNC programmer. I know what can be done.
 

JPMKarting

Site Supporter
Why do you say "inaccurate"? With today's machining technology, I'm pretty certain I could make those pills with dead on accuracy. I'm a CAD/CAM knowledgeable, CNC programmer. I know what can be done.

Accurate based on what?

As soon as you introduce any of the variables I mentioned above, your accurate pills no longer become accurate.

If you made a pill that was say, -3, you would have to have a baseline for that -3 measurement. What if the baseline changes, as often does in racing conditions?

If I lower the RF spindle 2 washers and raise the LF spindle 2 washers, ive introduced more negative camber into the RF. So now your -3 pill actually is -3.5 when I put a camber gauge on it.

Im sure you can get pretty much any camber you want with a set of pills. What I'm saying though, is that a pre-measured pill is useless as far as an actual camber reading once its put on. A -3 pill could be -3, -4.5, or -2....all depending on the other variables. You cant take the marking of the pill for face value.
 

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
Accurate based on what?
Regardless of where your settings place the rest of the frame, an insert marked 3° castor will change your castor setting by 3°. I can't see how that's any different from any L bracket setting. There's not much else I can say if you can't see the logic in that.
 

JPMKarting

Site Supporter
Regardless of where your settings place the rest of the frame, an insert marked 3° castor will change your castor setting by 3°. I can't see how that's any different from any L bracket setting. There's not much else I can say if you can't see the logic in that.

we’ve been discussing camber, not castor....
 

Gab507

Member
My issue with pills is that you can not change caster and camber independently. It seems like a compromise at best where as the "L" block and heim are completely independent. Snipers are great but seem prone to breakage. I have not used them but I have seen others have issues.
 
Regardless of where your settings place the rest of the frame, an insert marked 3° castor will change your castor setting by 3°. I can't see how that's any different from any L bracket setting. There's not much else I can say if you can't see the logic in that.
L bracket i can get any camber number i want, you put in a 3 degree pill, you have 3 plus whatever the other variables include or take away.
You have experienced dirt guys telling you things, try to listen and learn. If you arent understanding, Google the info and see pictures, they are tons on the internet.
 

Colt sr

Member
The 08 millinium tempest v2 had those style pills on it... Fast kart but a pain to try to change at the track...
 

Ted Hamilton

Helmet Painter / Racer
The european sprint karts have moved to 25mm spindle shafts to eliminate flex instead of the old 17mm. I foresee American karts migrating that way too. Only American karts use the L bracket front ends.... Euros tend to have a rotating eccentric cam or a sniper-type system. The old way was a washer with offset welded kingpin bolt... then eccentrics....then indexing sniper type. If it were me, I'd do the Buller style stub yokes with infinite and easy caster adjustment and wheel track width adjustment, then have a single heim upper for camber adjustment.
 
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