The question is, how do you know when you have the camber just right for any particular racetrack? I have always went off experience, less for flat tracks and more for banked tracks is what has been working for me. When I say less I mean less negative right front and less positive left front cambers. Normally I end up around +.25/-2.5 for flat tracks and +.5/-3 for slightly banked tracks, with a 2016 Faktor on Burris 33's tires, decent-medium bite tracks but occasionally low bite. So, how do you know when its just right, or if you are leaving a little speed on the table by not changing camber to get it just right?
camber...how do you know when its just right?
- Thread starter W5R
- Start date
Joe28
Member
I'm still fairly new to the set up game but, I have seen guys run a chalk stripe across the tread on the front tires. After the race they check the stripe to see if any is left. I haven't tried it, but I've seen it done. Don't know how accurate it is, hopefully someone else can explain it better. Joe
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
You could read this. Lots of information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle
Modern lto karts use rf camber to balance front to rear traction. Once maximum traction is achieved, any adjustment will result in less front traction.
Lf camber helps start the weight transfer to the right rear to use the stagger to help kart turn. Adjustments change the timing of the start of transfer.
I was at a race this past weekend, I was turning 11.6 lap times in hotlaps with the kart fairly dialed in, several tenths faster than other Opens. I made a RF caber change adding a few flats of negative camber, which lost a full second on lap times in qualifying, to 12.7 lap times. Went back down on RF camber for the feature and went strait to the front of the field again. That is what has me asking about this
paulkish
old fart
Don't know how you will answer about your writing: " Once maximum traction is achieved"
Might it also be ok if your would have written "Once the limit of grip is achieved 'equally' at each right side tire". ...
... just wonderin bout it? ...
The 'equally' at each was because of thoughts of hey you could be at the limit of grip at the RF but have a ton of grip left at the RR ... or ... you could be at the limit of grip at the RR and have a ton of grip left at the RF. Each case would be balanced but there would be something remaining which could be improved on. You wouldn't be tight as in bound to the track and you wouldn't be pushing or loose but still have some speed to be found. ... and maybe because I think that may have been a new thought thrown out there to consider.
I hope that goes somewhere because it offers at lease to me, "some new light to be shed on the use of grip in general". and again ... maybe?
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
It would be interesting to see how much the corner weights changed with the increase in camber. Don't you make changes in camber by increasing the kingpin inclination?
How thick is one of those washers?
Changes in camber, along with changes in kingpin inclination and corner weights, kinda makes it hard to decide what made the kart handling change so much!
How thick is one of those washers?
Changes in camber, along with changes in kingpin inclination and corner weights, kinda makes it hard to decide what made the kart handling change so much!
paulkish
old fart
"Should have probably said when right front has reached maximum grip or traction, any adjustment will make less grip or traction."
Read through your writings a couple of times this morning and I think I understand your thoughts now. Thank you.
Just a probably repeated thought: Balance traction on the right side tires and you can carry x amount of speed through the turn by both maintaining initial momentum and applying power during the turn. Loose the balance up front by over working the RF tire and you push. Do the same at the rear and you become loose. The other end of the scale is if you have extra grip up front and keep the same limit of grip at the rear then you will become loose. That is why so many times on here you read that if you have a problem in the back do something up front and vice versa. Now because of this conversation I'm going to take a crack at thunkin why it works that way. Upfront I would think it doesn't matter how much extra grip you put to the RF tire it should not cause the RR to go over it's limit of grip so long as you do not add in additional speed. I can see how adding grip to the RF could cause a driver to carry additional speed into the corner and then it becoming the extra speed which puts the RR over it's limit. But I'm now trying to thunk of a reason why simply putting more grip into the RF tire without an increase in speed could put the RR over it's grip limit.
Resent conversations on here or babble by me has indicated at least to me that in a corner if you stay on the gas the engine and the RR tire will start fighting with each other. The fight is the engine trying to drive your forward and the RR tire grabbing at the track and keeping the engine from being able to accelerate. I think I got some confirmation on it by JWD adding in how the conflict will also cause additional wear on the tire.
I see the exact same thing not happening but because of a different reason. The scenario is because the RF has excessive grip it also becomes engaged with the track more. I'm not sure of the last sentence but for this train of thought I'll leave it and treat it as a fact. Moving on the only thing available to release the RF from the track is speed and effort to drive your forward by the RR tire. If the RR tire is already running at it's limit of grip which is a good thing to be fast, then any additional effort it has to give to release the now stuck too hard to the track RF will put it over it's grip limit. The result is if everything is perfect and both right side tires are balanced at their given limit of grip at x speed and you increase grip at the RF without reducing speed, you will become loose. This is for me the first time I was able to put my sort of logic to why increasing grip at the front can cause you to become loose or have problems in the back. It makes it logical and possible now for me to see why you can fix a loose by reducing grip up front.
But "Rule #1" says you never fix a problem unless absolutely necessary by reducing grip. If you fix a loose problem by reducing grip at the RF, your also demanding that speed cannot be increased in the turn. If your loose because of excessive grip at the RF then increase grip at the RR instead which will allow you to carry more over all speed in the turn.
If my thunkin and writing this morning is correct it throws out the old rule of: "If you have a problem in the back you fix it up front and if you have a problem in the front you fix it in the back."
... but I think with karts the rule could be generally correct. I think it could generally be correct if the adjustments you make up front effect how grip changes in the back and vice versa. It will also mean the magic caster plate and washer adjustments are doing more to control weight transfer(timing if you like) in the back and front to back, then to adjust weight out at the RF or weight put to the RF. I'm a little uncertain about the last part of the last sentence but I'll leave it as written to see what may be said about it and the rest of my bull because this is all just IMHO and ain't necessairly right anyway. ...
paulkish
old fart
I was reading through my last post and came to these two sentences: " I'm not sure of the last sentence but for this train of thought I'll leave it and treat it as a fact. Moving on the only thing available to release the RF from the track is speed and effort to drive your forward by the RR tire."
I go to a lot of winged sprint car races and it's a common thing to see a driver 'sawing' at the steering wheel coming off turns. I've always wondered why they do it and if it really is of any benefit over maybe just giving the driver a better 'feel' for the car. Reading my last post about the conflict created between front and rear tires sawing on the steering wheel may also offer more speed. Yes a winged sprint car has a huge right rear tire but it's not unusual for a driver to be turning while accelerating. If your turning and accelerating with a 900hp engine your also likely at the limit of grip too. In fact the most common place for a winged sprint to spin is coming off the corner. Back to my own personal thoughts on it. If indeed there is a conflict between the front and rear tires because the relatively small RF tire may indeed at that point per the RR being at it's limit of grip, be gripping too much. Putting effort into sawing the steering wheel may in fact be releasing the RF from gripping and allowing the RR to work at a higher speed. If the LR is anchored and the RR is rolling around turning the car anyway, the sawing may in fact be allowing the car to go faster.
... ya know I think I'm correct about this. I see drivers doing it because they learn it gives them more feel not knowing but probably suspecting it is letting them go faster. It actually is allowing the RR to have more grip to be used to go forward better because some of it's grip is no longer being used to free up the RF tire. ... yep sounds correct to me. smiley face this time because I like what I wrote. ...
edit: I've never heard what I wrote before and unless someone points to where the thought/theory of it(if it is correct) has been presented before. ... I'll take the sole credit for something new. ...
And if someone points us to additional info on it I'd sure be happy to read more on "my" still original thought/theory/idea about it.
edit: Just had a though which might(probably not but) go along with this post. Counter steering is normally done when the back end gets loose. Yes I realize when you counter steer your steering towards or to the same direction the loose back end is going until you catch it. But in light of what I wrote above the counter steering may also be 'freeing up' the front end some which also gives some grip back to the RR tire. Sure seem logical at this time to me. I'm not saying it's "THE" reason, I'm suggesting freeing up the front when counter steering may be a slight part of being able to catch the back and keep it from coming around on you.
I go to a lot of winged sprint car races and it's a common thing to see a driver 'sawing' at the steering wheel coming off turns. I've always wondered why they do it and if it really is of any benefit over maybe just giving the driver a better 'feel' for the car. Reading my last post about the conflict created between front and rear tires sawing on the steering wheel may also offer more speed. Yes a winged sprint car has a huge right rear tire but it's not unusual for a driver to be turning while accelerating. If your turning and accelerating with a 900hp engine your also likely at the limit of grip too. In fact the most common place for a winged sprint to spin is coming off the corner. Back to my own personal thoughts on it. If indeed there is a conflict between the front and rear tires because the relatively small RF tire may indeed at that point per the RR being at it's limit of grip, be gripping too much. Putting effort into sawing the steering wheel may in fact be releasing the RF from gripping and allowing the RR to work at a higher speed. If the LR is anchored and the RR is rolling around turning the car anyway, the sawing may in fact be allowing the car to go faster.
... ya know I think I'm correct about this. I see drivers doing it because they learn it gives them more feel not knowing but probably suspecting it is letting them go faster. It actually is allowing the RR to have more grip to be used to go forward better because some of it's grip is no longer being used to free up the RF tire. ... yep sounds correct to me. smiley face this time because I like what I wrote. ...
edit: I've never heard what I wrote before and unless someone points to where the thought/theory of it(if it is correct) has been presented before. ...
I'll take the sole credit for something new. ... And if someone points us to additional info on it I'd sure be happy to read more on "my" still original thought/theory/idea about it.
edit: Just had a though which might(probably not but) go along with this post. Counter steering is normally done when the back end gets loose. Yes I realize when you counter steer your steering towards or to the same direction the loose back end is going until you catch it. But in light of what I wrote above the counter steering may also be 'freeing up' the front end some which also gives some grip back to the RR tire. Sure seem logical at this time to me. I'm not saying it's "THE" reason, I'm suggesting freeing up the front when counter steering may be a slight part of being able to catch the back and keep it from coming around on you.
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I understand that and completely agree with you Joey...i made the adjustment i made basically to see how the kart would react with that much more camber....since normally with a stock class kart i will run 2 7/8 or -3 on the right front for this same track, but with an Open i normally am closer to -2.5 on the same exact track or track conditions. I have not tried that much camber with the open before so i took it there to see how the kart would respond, knowing i had it dialed in already, just to see if i could pick up more speed. Since this was not a big money race, i decided to try it and go for it just to see what it would do. I dont mind trying off the wall stuff once in awhile, sometimes you stumble onto something by doing things out of the ordinary
No, you make changes in camber with a heim joint on the top of the L block, which is what holds the spindle and washers in place on the kart itself. You adjust washers to adjust cross, you adjust the nuts on the heim joint to adjust camber or caster. To adjust camber, we would either turn the nuts out, which would lay the tire down more and decrease negative camber on the right front, or we would adjust the nuts in, which would increase negative camber on the right front. Adjustments to camber at the track without scales, is usually done by adjusting it one flat at a time, flat meaning the flat part on the nut, where the wrench fits on the nut, most will not adjust more than one flat at a time, which is usually equal to .1 % of camber change like JWD said.
flattop1
Dawg 89
yes.
the "heim" is connected to the kingpin.
cross washers are 1/16 an 1/32 thick
Only caster is changing kingpin inclination though isn't it Flattop? Changing camber isn't moving the kingpin forward or back any, the kingpin remains in the same position as before, the spindle is being angled either more up for negative cambler and down for more positive camber at the right front, right? Then the 12-15 washers top and bottom of the spindle to adjust cross, on 95% of the dirt oval karts out there. Those washers are usually 1/16 and 1/8" thick I believe, for Millenium, Ultramax and Phantom chassis they all look the same as far as washers and heims, L blocks and Spindle setup
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Im a little confused also. The way i see KPI is the angle of the kingpin...only way i can see to change that angle forward and backward is to loosen both heims and adjust the caster, which will move the kingpin forward or backwards. I would guess you would be moving the kingpin more in or out when you adjust camber also, but not as much of an effect on KPI as you would get by adjusting Caster...am i reading into that right Jamie?