"J'-remy
Member
they don't squat by flexing the chassis but by the font axles moving within caster and king pin inclination angles
Can anyone explain
- Thread starter rac12race
- Start date
"J'-remy
Member
it does it the amount intended by the manufacturer. you can adjust caster to make it happen at a more rapid rate.i agree the short wheelbase of a kart does not require much steering input. I always laugh when people say their car handles like a go kart. really? mine only wants to turn left
Spindles may move. Or at least the ends of them.
Of most importance is what happens at the center of the contact patches.
The contact patch is your only connection between the driver and the track.
Which is doing what, where on the track may surprise you.
WarEagle07
Member
The below is copied from James at PRC about the Deuce. Hasn't steered me wrong yet.
The Deuce HAS TO HAVE more bite than most karts. 9 times out of 10 you cannot simply take the tires off of another kart, put them on a Deuce and expect it to run, ESPECIALLY if the set up is not right. You may be able to get away with it on a wet track with tires durometering in the 20's and 30's.
With Maxxis on a Recon, I used to wipe my tires 4-6 times per week and did very well. Now, with the Deuce at the same tracks (with relatively the same conditions), I wipe 10-15 times per week. Same prep as I've always used. Then, at the track I'm not doing anything different than normal. Wiping as needed, and choosing the right tires for the track conditions. I have won countless times on both karts, but there's no way I could prepare my tires for a Recon, put them on my Deuce and expect to be competitive.
As for set up... the Deuce cannot run more than 45.5% nose.
I've received many calls and messages with customers stating that their nose is 46.5-47.0% because "that's what they've always ran with other karts." Therein lies the problem. Different karts require different set ups, different tires, and sometimes different driving methods.
As for nose weight, mine has seemed to be best at 44.8%.
You also have to keep the left side weight lower on the Deuce than with recent karts. A lot of people have been getting away with 60.0% left and even up around 62.0% left with Recon & MINecon's. However, the Deuce will PUSH with that much left. I usually keep mine right around 60.0% in 425/super heavy, where I used to run 61.5% on my Recon.
Along with left, you cannot run up around 70.0% cross like many have over the years. Mine is normally around 64.5-65.5%.
So, for your normal, local track in stock medium/heavy you should have something like this:
Nose: 45.0%
Left: 58.5%
Cross: 65.0-66.0%
LF: Camber: +0.25 | Caster: 8 | Toe: 0
RF: Camber: -2.50 to -2.75 | Caster: 12 | Toe: 1/16" Out
Rear stagger will vary depending on track size and corner radius. We always run and recommend running 1-1/2" in the front.
If it doesn't turn (especially on entry) it's probably because it needs more bite.
I hope this helps anyone still working with their Deuce. Like I've said before, I LOVE mine!
The Deuce HAS TO HAVE more bite than most karts. 9 times out of 10 you cannot simply take the tires off of another kart, put them on a Deuce and expect it to run, ESPECIALLY if the set up is not right. You may be able to get away with it on a wet track with tires durometering in the 20's and 30's.
With Maxxis on a Recon, I used to wipe my tires 4-6 times per week and did very well. Now, with the Deuce at the same tracks (with relatively the same conditions), I wipe 10-15 times per week. Same prep as I've always used. Then, at the track I'm not doing anything different than normal. Wiping as needed, and choosing the right tires for the track conditions. I have won countless times on both karts, but there's no way I could prepare my tires for a Recon, put them on my Deuce and expect to be competitive.
As for set up... the Deuce cannot run more than 45.5% nose.
I've received many calls and messages with customers stating that their nose is 46.5-47.0% because "that's what they've always ran with other karts." Therein lies the problem. Different karts require different set ups, different tires, and sometimes different driving methods.
As for nose weight, mine has seemed to be best at 44.8%.
You also have to keep the left side weight lower on the Deuce than with recent karts. A lot of people have been getting away with 60.0% left and even up around 62.0% left with Recon & MINecon's. However, the Deuce will PUSH with that much left. I usually keep mine right around 60.0% in 425/super heavy, where I used to run 61.5% on my Recon.
Along with left, you cannot run up around 70.0% cross like many have over the years. Mine is normally around 64.5-65.5%.
So, for your normal, local track in stock medium/heavy you should have something like this:
Nose: 45.0%
Left: 58.5%
Cross: 65.0-66.0%
LF: Camber: +0.25 | Caster: 8 | Toe: 0
RF: Camber: -2.50 to -2.75 | Caster: 12 | Toe: 1/16" Out
Rear stagger will vary depending on track size and corner radius. We always run and recommend running 1-1/2" in the front.
If it doesn't turn (especially on entry) it's probably because it needs more bite.
I hope this helps anyone still working with their Deuce. Like I've said before, I LOVE mine!
"J'-remy
Member
Kart racing always favors the short drivers. Short people like Barrett Terry and Tod Miller we're the top in the country were both factory drivers. If your a tall kart racer (average size by national standard) you need more left don't care what chassis, track, length, or banking.
Hopefully
TritonJrBluePlate
Member
Seems to me that the discussion about cross loosening or tightening up a kart is dependent on the other percentages.
For example:
If my nose is 50% (or more) and I increase cross then I expect it to loosen the kart.
If my nose is 40% (or less) and I increase cross I’d expect it to tighten the kart.
These are kind of extreme book ends but, the point is still valid. However, I do think there is a fine line in there around 44%~48% nose.
If I’m wrong tell me.
But, I’ve had bad bad situations where we needed to plant the RF to get it to turn. That required adding total weight to the RF which increased cross. In the end the nose weight went up almost 2% and the kart turned well.
This specific example took a kart that couldn’t compete in practice but after the changes ran top 3.
For example:
If my nose is 50% (or more) and I increase cross then I expect it to loosen the kart.
If my nose is 40% (or less) and I increase cross I’d expect it to tighten the kart.
These are kind of extreme book ends but, the point is still valid. However, I do think there is a fine line in there around 44%~48% nose.
If I’m wrong tell me.
But, I’ve had bad bad situations where we needed to plant the RF to get it to turn. That required adding total weight to the RF which increased cross. In the end the nose weight went up almost 2% and the kart turned well.
This specific example took a kart that couldn’t compete in practice but after the changes ran top 3.
TritonJrBluePlate
Member
I’ve been struggling to find the best ways to “weight Jack”, “transfer weight” etc whatever you want to call it.
So, a couple weeks ago while scaling I asked my son to turn the wheel like he’s going in a corner and hold it so I could see how the weights shifted.
Very simply
My LF picked up 5 pounds while my RF lost 5 pounds
My RR picked up 5 pounds while my LR lost 5 pounds.
Which took my cross from 65~60. I assume this is controlled by the casters
I assume that the tighter tracks need more than 5 pounds weight jacking and the bigger tracks may need less jacking.
Is this solely on the caster settings?
Caster becomes camber.
Camber has a far greater effect on weight jacking than caster, even though caster is a part.
Al Nunley and I had some discussions over the last 5 years about how this affects a modern lto chassis vs a sprint type chassis. And how we use this to our advantage.
A search should yield hours of reading, and some questions for comprehension.
Here is one to get you started.
https://4cycle.com/karting/threads/spindle-angle.110398/
Last edited:
ZForceRacing
Member
Y’all need to watch this video. But like it says, it depends on if it’s high or low cross chassis.
paulkish
old fart
Great, fantastic, wow video on the Concept of cross.
Beyond concept the reason your tight or loose at any cross setting is the same as it's always been.
If the RR looses grip your loose and how free you are is about how close you can run the RR to it's limit of grip.
That's it that's all there is too it.
The rest is about all the different ways and things you can do to move the RR towards or away from it's limit of grip, depending on the changing load it's carrying at all places around the track.
.
Beyond concept the reason your tight or loose at any cross setting is the same as it's always been.
If the RR looses grip your loose and how free you are is about how close you can run the RR to it's limit of grip.
That's it that's all there is too it.
The rest is about all the different ways and things you can do to move the RR towards or away from it's limit of grip, depending on the changing load it's carrying at all places around the track.
.
"J'-remy
Member
increasing the RF grip will need to be done with camber and dynamic weight transfer around the corner or lack of weight transfer. if you need front end grip and are within the numbers the solution is not adding weight to the front end its adjusting camber, caster, decreasing cross or subtracting weight. whoever started these ideas of fixing a front end by adding weight is like fixing a lean carburetor by restricting the exhaust. saying things like planting the right front confuses the situation because the kart's front end geometry is designed to UNLOAD it.
people are somehow under the impression that high cross is "Fast" and will adjust and compromise the entire kart for large cross numbers. People hated my Axiom because it was so hard to keep up with. it ran down every modern chassis out there and it handled like a dream with 61% cross. someone just posted an email from Phantom with the factory telling people to stop adding weight to the front and keep the cross 65-64% but every tom dick and harry on here will ignore that because they know better because high cross= speed and I need me some speed.
"J'-remy
Member
because the cross has gone over the cliff.
to put things into context were talking about a 10 -15% increase. out of 100 its really not that big. its not like we went from 20% cross to 90%. the first development in the increased cross chassis was the move to larger tire sizes, the second wave with the really high cross chassis was the development of prep and the increased grip it can create. currently the chassis manufactures are at a loss of how to make the chassis faster as there hasn't been any headway in motors/tires etc.
XXX#40
2A supporter
He was talking about 1 chassis.
Rear Z bar location dictates what range nose % the kart can operate in, and that differs chassis to chassis brand
paulkish
old fart
The only thing which puts things into context is the end result based on a similar starting point.
Without comparing like starting setups everything is just something you do to hopefully give you the end result your looking for without any logical reasoning behind it.
Cross can't be discussed in any way accurately because cross is just a number gathered from different perspectives.
You have cross and then you have cross and changes in cross being done either to both RF and LR the same.
Or only changed at the RF.
Or only changed at the LR.
Or some other of the infinite ways to change the cross number.
Cross changes and the on track result can only be accurately compared as the video explained if the starting point is the same.
... your only loose if the RR looses grip. period end of story
Without comparing like starting setups everything is just something you do to hopefully give you the end result your looking for without any logical reasoning behind it.
Cross can't be discussed in any way accurately because cross is just a number gathered from different perspectives.
You have cross and then you have cross and changes in cross being done either to both RF and LR the same.
Or only changed at the RF.
Or only changed at the LR.
Or some other of the infinite ways to change the cross number.
Cross changes and the on track result can only be accurately compared as the video explained if the starting point is the same.
... your only loose if the RR looses grip. period end of story
XXX#40
2A supporter
High cross wasn't the reason we went to a bigger tire.
The offset design of chassis created that problem, an increased demand on the right side tires.
paulkish
old fart
Per many years ago if I'm remembering correctly:
The RF tire became bigger because of the increased demands put on the RF tire for many reasons.
The very first explanation I remember for going to a bigger/wider RF tire was to help get rid of heat from the increased work the RF tire was now doing.
Weather or not it was the correct answer or maybe just the answer those in the know like Chris Gabehart, JWD, Pat Donaldson and maybe even Harrel back then wanted to give, could also be debated.
Cross also effects stagger.
... I think the real smart guys, not me, think about stagger as just another tool to be used to help use your right side tires properly. ...
The RF tire became bigger because of the increased demands put on the RF tire for many reasons.
The very first explanation I remember for going to a bigger/wider RF tire was to help get rid of heat from the increased work the RF tire was now doing.
Weather or not it was the correct answer or maybe just the answer those in the know like Chris Gabehart, JWD, Pat Donaldson and maybe even Harrel back then wanted to give, could also be debated.
Cross also effects stagger.
...
I think the real smart guys, not me, think about stagger as just another tool to be used to help use your right side tires properly. ...