Cherry Picking Short Blocks

Phiddy

Member
This happened back in the day with Yamaha KT100's. Some distributors/builders would open the boxes and take the cylinder or head off, measure them, pick the ones they wanted and sell the rest. I wouldn't buy one if the box has been opened. Wouldn't surprise me if it still happens, Lol. Product of spec racing IMO
 

Ted Hamilton

helmet painter and racer
But after break in wouldn't they all equal out?
Depends...if it was just piston drag and it wore in properly, then probably equal. If the better spinning engines have better bearing alignment, they'll always be better... This is why blueprinting is a good thing, IMO....it equals things out to a set spec. "Stock" classes become exponentially more spendy because you have to spend exponentially more to chase those last .0005's because the rulebook won't let you equal things out "the easy way." (aka the more affordable -- MACHINING -- way. This is why you can buy a blueprinted top-shelf KT-100 all day long, but the top racers horde their good carbs like gold...
 

fatboy1dh

Member
Perfect answer, right on the money!!!
JJ/Flash,

What is marginal in your opinion? A tenth of a hp? To think they are all exactly the same is silly. Yes, they are close, but equal? No. When a guy can afford that last tenth, wouldn't he be a fool to not try to find it?
 
Have you ever taken the tape off of the top of one of those things :unsure:

You would have to be a special kind of something to want to do that on a dozen engines :oops:
 

Kart43

Member
If you know for sure and are not just speculating that an Official Briggs dealer is doing this, cherry picking they should be reported to Briggs. There is a code of conduct required to attain a Motorsport dealership, any dealer doing this is should be removed from the program. Any dealer that would risk the loss of the right to sell these engines certainly does not understand the program.
 

Jimbo

If you talk the talk you should walk the walk
I don't like cherries (too sour) so i don't pick them.
However, i've have found more than one short block sideways in the box. I have had brand new ones with broken fins.
So if i send one of them to someone he is going to want me to pay to ship it back and also give him free shipping on the new one.
No thanks.
I can tell you that there is no HP difference in a motor with .003" pop up and one that is .003" in the hole.
There is a difference is in the nut behind the wheel though.
 

fatboy1dh

Member
If you know for sure and are not just speculating that an Official Briggs dealer is doing this, cherry picking they should be reported to Briggs. There is a code of conduct required to attain a Motorsport dealership, any dealer doing this is should be removed from the program. Any dealer that would risk the loss of the right to sell these engines certainly does not understand the program.
I didn’t see anywhere here that someone was implying it was being done. I saw someone asking if there was an easy way to tell. If his dealer/kart shop keeps them on a shelf, how does he know which one to buy? I read it as a customer making sure he picks the right one (kinda like knocking on watermelons before you buy). Hence my reply with the only known thing you could tell on a short block by just looking at it on the shelf.
 

CarlsonMotorsports

Premium User
I don't personally know of anyone moving enough volume of these to walk-in customers that they are unsealing boxes to sort through them.
It could happen, sure. I would guess that the "+" blocks are being held back for their better customers and/or house karts being a bigger problem. The average blocks get built and sold to others. This was a regular deal back in the early flathead days.
Has anyone heard of any dealers charging more for the "+" blocks? I would think that would be a big red line to be crossed with Briggs.

Power Distributors will definitely not allow you to sort through the at their facility, this I know.
I don't know that it's worth it from a "0" block to a "+3" block since not one of us has the capability to accurately measure that, but I would disagree with Jimbo (I know, not the first time :) ) that -3 to +3 bearing no difference.
Personally, I want every advantage I can get. (and so do my customers!)
Even if it's halves of tenths...a few here and a few there really add up on a sealed spec engine.

It's sort of pot-luck when you get one that's right on the max pop-up, but it sure does make you (and your customer) smile when they see that little "3" on the front of the block.

Resized_20190814_113040_7309.jpeg


$875 complete & race-ready. This one just went to Texas.


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Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
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Linden, IN
765-339-4407
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95 shaw

Premium User
Isn't that the point of the new seal?

All specs of the shortblock, including popup can be viewed by scanning the seal?
 

jjchat

Member
JJ/Flash,

What is marginal in your opinion? A tenth of a hp? To think they are all exactly the same is silly. Yes, they are close, but equal? No. When a guy can afford that last tenth, wouldn't he be a fool to not try to find it?
Based on extensive dyno AND track testing, I can say .10 is marginal. I have seen karts with .3 less win big over those with more. Handling trumps HP and with 5 dyno pulls an engine will vary by .10 pretty easily. People who talk about chasing .001 are people who don't really know what makes a difference at the track and are usually chasing ghosts with greenbacks. That said, I do everything I can to get the best performing motor I can for peace of mind and the personal challenge. However, I am not losing sleep when one motor is .2 more than another. I also find almost every 206 I work with is within .2 of each other. I don't do anywhere near the numbers as Brian, Jimbo, or Baker, but I have tested dozens (getting close to hundreds) of 206's and that is the window I find. I have also tested everyone of these guys engines and find they are usually in that window as well.
 

fatboy1dh

Member
Based on extensive dyno AND track testing, I can say .10 is marginal. I have seen karts with .3 less win big over those with more. Handling trumps HP and with 5 dyno pulls an engine will vary by .10 pretty easily. People who talk about chasing .001 are people who don't really know what makes a difference at the track and are usually chasing ghosts with greenbacks. That said, I do everything I can to get the best performing motor I can for peace of mind and the personal challenge. However, I am not losing sleep when one motor is .2 more than another. I also find almost every 206 I work with is within .2 of each other. I don't do anywhere near the numbers as Brian, Jimbo, or Baker, but I have tested dozens (getting close to hundreds) of 206's and that is the window I find. I have also tested everyone of these guys engines and find they are usually in that window as well.
Your experience matches mine. And like you, I still do everything I can to be on the top end of that 0.2 window. I guess that is my point.
 

Jimbo

If you talk the talk you should walk the walk
I swear on my mother's grave that i have never done this but what's to stop some A hole from using some brake clean and a red marker on the front of the block or head for that matter?
I wish Briggs would stop marking the blocks!!!!
It serves no good purpose!
In fact just the opposite!
 

CarlsonMotorsports

Premium User
I swear on my mother's grave that i have never done this but what's to stop some A hole from using some brake clean and a red marker on the front of the block or head for that matter?
I wish Briggs would stop marking the blocks!!!!
It serves no good purpose!
In fact just the opposite!
Especially when they're as accurate as they are. I understand the purpose to be to keep track of them at the factory and to better match them to keep compression/performance levels closer (from the factory.) I have yet to see one not measure exactly what it is marked (block or head.)
But like you, I suspect that some will hand sort (cherry pick) specific heads to specific blocks if they have the means.
You said earlier that it makes no HP difference from -.003" to +.003," so the numbers shouldn't matter, right?

I don't know about the brake clean idea -- that would be easily detected with the "ap."
As far as the integrity of the person who would do that, you are correct. AND, there are plenty who are selling dyno numbers currently - I see it as no different than that.
Salesman (inflating dyno numbers) can be some of the best liars.
 
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