Cog

MiCkEyDeAn

New member
So guys just going to throw this out and see where it goes ... When you guys are scaling out your karts which of you pay attention to the center of gravity in relationship to the setup and if so where do you try to keep it located in relation to front to back and left to right ... As well as VCG were do you guys try to keep it located and what makes you guys decide to move it up or down ? All ive ever really worked on with the VCG is raise it when ive ran into a drift ...
 
the CoG is easy to find laterally. The challenge is the vertical component. Basically if you have 54% rear and 54% left you could find the location laterally by finding 54% of the wheelbase and measure that front the front axle center line. And do the same from the center line from the right side contact patch... To find the vertical component you need to do the math to figure that out and it would be above ground level.

To me, finding the CoG height isnt as important as knowing that its there and playing with it to see the way it changes handling.
 
I use it as a record keeper to see how the kart handles on a certain track and kind of a guide to fine tune the weight to a certain corner of the kart that i feel from being in the seat needs a little more grip ... Kind of like adjusting the fade and balance on an surround sound system ... I know the VCG plays a lot bigger dinamic in the way a kart transfers weight but i still like to use the COG as a tool ... Thank you guys for your opinions ... I really appreciate it
 
Not so much COG but ALWAYS pay attention to VCG.

Thanks for bring that up since you have would you like to maybe answer the same question about where you like to try and keep the VCG when setting up a kart and what kind of conditions do you determine weather to raise or lower the VCG ???
 
No one on VCG really???
the more bite, the lower, the less bite, the higher. A wider tread base, or a lower driver, both lower the center of gravity. The opposite being true also. To actually measure the vertical COG is really a complicated procedure, so I always worked with generalities. In most cases, lap times are the deciding factor between which is right and which is wrong.

And then you have to consider the dynamics of the VCG. The turn radius, the speed of the kart, the banking of the track along with tire size, tire pressures etc. etc. all go into the dynamics of the effects of a change in VCG.
 
I have only looked at the VCG to answer the question of exactly how high it was. And to plug it into a spread sheet to approximate lateral weight transfer.

Now, in practice, what do you want the kart to do? Basically its go around the track as fast as possible without flipping or bicycling, right? Now if you were to draw "force" lines thru the CoG to the contact patch of the tires, (only going to talk about left turns here) So now you go around a corner and the laws of motion take over. The right side tires are going to see an increase in weight based and off the left side based on the CoG height and lateral acceleration generated by the turn. So, how do we keep the left sides on the ground? Lets get back to the "force lines" Say your left side weight is 50% Center of gravity is 14" and tack width is 40" (only because they are nice round numbers) you could draw a right triangle with the base at 50% of track width or 20" and 14" high. And at some lateral G load the left side tires will come off the ground. Lets just say its one G and the kart bicycles. 2 moves you can do is more left side weight OR lower the CoG. each will change the angle of that right side triangle and help the lifting. They would feel different and would react different as well.

The feeling of the lower CoG would be very twitchy and more difficult to feel the point where the inside tires come off. It can be fast but at faster tracks it is very easy to exceed the limits, and even harder to drive consistently fast.

Moving the CoG to the left is more of what we do for the faster oval tacks. Say we go to 60% left side weight and everything else the same. We moved the CoG 4 more inches to the left. The proper maths escape me but we are going to keep the numbers easy for the illustration. So we moved the cog 10% to the left our kart can now make 1.1G before the kart bicycles.

Well at least thats the theory. I know the numbers are wrong, 40 track contact patch is more the center of the tire so its not 40 the oval stuff is narrower than 40... But in the real world I had a guy I set a kart up for his kid. He was new was going to run the local short track, not the best grip. I set him up at 51% The dad asked when he should put on more left side weight, i told him when he went ANYWHERE else and if the left side tires didnt stay on the track... The kid won a TON of races at the local track, took the kart to Jasper and didnt go anywhere.

SO, lets go to your normal setup running at a pretty good track and higher left side weight etc. The grip is low your normal set up will slide off the edge. Moving CoG height is easier than left side weight if you have lead to move. IF you dont have lead, you could sit a little higher in the seat... This will help transfer weight and keep the kart from sliding.

Now before i get bombarded with "prep" solutions to handling problems, I will admit this is true. You can change your tires and fix a LOT of issues. Elsewhere on the forum someone had asked why wasn't asphalt oval racing more popular. Prep is the answer. On asphalt you don't (or at least didn't) have as many prep options, and the prep experts on dirt loose the ability to tune as effectively on asphalt. The prep is the easiest way to find speed, but its also sad because changing the setup to find the solutions is both fun and challenging and helps you come up with different ideas. And then when you combine those with the preps you can get very quick.

This CoG height issue is also why 140 pound guy with the SAME EXACT wheel weights, tires, chassis, etc will handle differently with a 200 pound guy driving. IF 200 pound guy is faster could try to move lead up on 140pounder and could help find that speed. IF 140pounder is faster tough to get 200 lower, easier to move him to the left... OR you just put him on a different prep...

Anyway, VCG is a can of worms, talking about it and challenging others trains of thought isn't always fun. But like I said before, obsessing over a point to make the VCG at and saying this point is what you need, is not as productive being able to wrap your head around the "idea" of what the VCG piece does and where it can fit in the handling puzzle.

Lastly, this is the way I see the CoG height interacting in the puzzle. I dont have hard numbers anymore. I haven't ran ovals in years. I have lost the computer i had the spreadsheet i built on it. Havent had the want or need to build it again. At the end of the oval testing phase i was starting to use the spreadsheet to adjust the kart and having success until the track got dry slick and I fell off the handling curve. (but i did win practice, as fast as lights as heavy weight...) The lessons I have learned have stayed with me. Id like to delve into them again, do some asphalt oval racing... perhaps ill figure how to build another spreadsheet...

Sorry this was so long and rambling, but you did ask for it Mickey
 
Sorry this was so long and rambling, but you did ask for it Mickey


No this is what I wanted ... I am on a mission to be a track champ this year ... I want to make sure as im setting up my kart im looking at all the changes in the right light .. Some times i seem to over think things but understanding all i can about the dynamics that each change i do to the kart has on its handling and timing of those actions i dont see anywhere where i can go wrong knowing these things ... I have learned alot from this forum and for that im grateful ... the shortest way around the track is not a straight line so i dont mind the ramble .. If i can get the most out of my kart itself thats only going to compliment a prep program thanks so much
 
Thanks for bring that up since you have would you like to maybe answer the same question about where you like to try and keep the VCG when setting up a kart and what kind of conditions do you determine weather to raise or lower the VCG ???

Sorry missed this, but Al and Barry covered it, I would of just gave a simpler answer like there is NO certain exact place for VCG other than the spot the kart likes ( with certain driver and track condition ), Lower for more grip and bigger upper body drivers and higher for just opposite.
As far as your quest PREFECT Tires first, rest just needs pretty close.

Good Luck on your Quest !!
 
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