Cross VS Stagger

[XXX#40]

Personally, I would love to rent a track for a couple of days AFTER a race day. Left the way that it was, and just kept tacky. I would love to spend days testing, making a small adjustment and running a few laps, learning what it did, etc. The problem with that is the track needs all the time they can get to be ready for the next race, my local track has to have EMS on site for insurance if anyone is on the track, etc etc. Testing is expensive and most of us dont want to risk being wrong on a race night.

It would be great if I could go out with something different on the kart for the heat race, but if it doesnt work, then I'm buried to start the feature.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice "race day" and go into the weekend with the mindset of test session.
Spending hours on the scales making changes and noting the changes pays large dividends as well.
I never took our scales to the track, didn't need to but if I made adjustments make a note, scale at home just like it finished the night

 

[XXX#40]

The vehicles I started racing with were on 1/10 mi. asphalt oval, LR drive only, 2x2 wooden main frame with a full body. We could flex them hard enough to pick that wheel up, and yes, loss of drive. So if you're on an oval and want single wheel drive, make it the outside wheel, for sure.

The ONLY benefits I see to stagger are helping with turn-in and reducing corner scrub. If the track is tacky enough to allow for turn-in without it, it's also tacky enough to unweight the LR enough to run without it. If you can make a kart bicycle, there's enough grip not to need stagger. If it's dry slick, you'd better have some. But don't take our word for it -- go test. Learn. Find a new way. Find a better mousetrap.

It has never made sense to me to over-tire a kart and then remove grip... Give me all the grip I can get and then let me tune and drive to compensate... A bunch of weird work-arounds seem to exist in dirt oval karting that could be solved by more appropriate means, IMO. But by all means, follow the existing status quo from the established leaders. Just keep in mind you'll have to do SOMETHING different to beat the people who are establishing the status quo... Question and reason out everything. I will say that with the amount of weight on a kart, going purely straight, there's no way you can "drive off the left" down the straight, and "drive off the right" in the turns. The "right" is slightly more accurate, but only because of dynamic weight transfer. I'd wager a bit that BOTH tires are in a controlled slip in the turns, and modern LTO karts NEVER go purely straight. So, driving a big ellipse means that they're always living in some part of dynamic weight transfer, and thus you can get away with some amount of stagger. I don't think most people have tested enough to truly optimize every factor.

That's the benefit to building your own kart track, so I spent 1000s of laps testing, and when it was first finished it had progressive banking, so we could roll in what we wanted flat or almost around the bottom, to 33 deg. around the top

 

[XXX#40]

That's the benefit to building your own kart track, so I spent 1000s of laps testing, and when it was first finished it had progressive banking, so we could roll in what we wanted flat or almost around the bottom, to 33 deg. around the top

And no it wasn't a back yard track, it was a 1/6 mile, Clay City, in Ky

 

[95 shaw]

The vehicles I started racing with were on 1/10 mi. asphalt oval, LR drive only, 2x2 wooden main frame with a full body. We could flex them hard enough to pick that wheel up, and yes, loss of drive. So if you're on an oval and want single wheel drive, make it the outside wheel, for sure.

The ONLY benefits I see to stagger are helping with turn-in and reducing corner scrub. If the track is tacky enough to allow for turn-in without it, it's also tacky enough to unweight the LR enough to run without it. If you can make a kart bicycle, there's enough grip not to need stagger. If it's dry slick, you'd better have some. But don't take our word for it -- go test. Learn. Find a new way. Find a better mousetrap.

It has never made sense to me to over-tire a kart and then remove grip... Give me all the grip I can get and then let me tune and drive to compensate... A bunch of weird work-arounds seem to exist in dirt oval karting that could be solved by more appropriate means, IMO. But by all means, follow the existing status quo from the established leaders. Just keep in mind you'll have to do SOMETHING different to beat the people who are establishing the status quo... Question and reason out everything. I will say that with the amount of weight on a kart, going purely straight, there's no way you can "drive off the left" down the straight, and "drive off the right" in the turns. The "right" is slightly more accurate, but only because of dynamic weight transfer. I'd wager a bit that BOTH tires are in a controlled slip in the turns, and modern LTO karts NEVER go purely straight. So, driving a big ellipse means that they're always living in some part of dynamic weight transfer, and thus you can get away with some amount of stagger. I don't think most people have tested enough to truly optimize every factor.

The truth of the matter is about having the proper amount of traction or grip at each wheel at the appropriate time around the track to get the quickest lap times.

The point is to realize that things don't always work as expected.
If things don't make sense to the way you are thinking, there is a really good chance that you are missing something.
Weight will always transfer according to g loads on the vcg. Following the weight lets you see what is happening.

 

[Ted Hamilton]

The truth of the matter is about having the proper amount of traction or grip at each wheel at the appropriate time around the track to get the quickest lap times.
...
Weight will always transfer according to g loads on the vcg. Following the weight lets you see what is happening.

For sure -- but nobody has put load transducers on to see the dynamic corner weights, have they? I'm sure that the chassis manufacturers set the baselines knowing that the dynamic loads shift that baseline to be near "optimum" under "average conditions". I suspect that the methodology to get the baselines is incremental improvement instead of theoretical engineering. I suspect there's some speed left on the table. We'll see.

 

["J'-remy]

Chassis rake and weight transfer, so no he isn't entirely correct and no they arent welded to the chassis at extreme height differences

yes they are welded at different heights unless your not running a LTO kart

 

[XXX#40]

yes they are welded at different heights unless your not running a LTO kart

Maybe your reading comprehension sucks, but cant you show me where I said they wasnt? TIA ill hang up and listen

 

[alvin l nunley]

It's been said here many times that LTO karts pull to the left. That would indicate to me that the LR is the sliding tire rather than the driving tire. The LR is the sliding tire, rather than the RR, which, if it was sliding, it would pull the kart to the right.

Another thing; a sliding tire is probably going to generate more heat than a rolling tire. More heat means more bite, to a point. This might explain why LTO karts sometimes tend to push coming out of a corner. Probably because of incorrect stagger.

 

[XXX#40]

It's been said here many times that LTO karts pull to the left. That would indicate to me that the LR is the sliding tire rather than the driving tire. The LR is the sliding tire, rather than the RR, which, if it was sliding, it would pull the kart to the right.

Another thing; a sliding tire is probably going to generate more heat than a rolling tire. More heat means more bite, to a point. This might explain why LTO karts sometimes tend to push coming out of a corner. Probably because of incorrect stagger.

pulling to the left is from stagger in the front along with caster.
And a kart with a push coming out if its LR push the LR is still producing bite, maybe get an oval kart and see what happens when you run harder or softer tires on the LR, until then your peeing in the dark

 

[XXX#40]

For sure -- but nobody has put load transducers on to see the dynamic corner weights, have they? I'm sure that the chassis manufacturers set the baselines knowing that the dynamic loads shift that baseline to be near "optimum" under "average conditions". I suspect that the methodology to get the baselines is incremental improvement instead of theoretical engineering. I suspect there's some speed left on the table. We'll see.

Not load transducers, but we have used accelerometers do those count?

 

[XXX#40]

yes they are welded at different heights unless your not running a LTO kart

And youre way off base on your reasoning on front stagger

 

["J'-remy]

with a fixed steering wheel and no stager in the rear your kart will track strait if aligned properly. stager only affects a solid axle if we were allowed to run a live axle no one would care about stagger you would run the tire that gave you the best ratio. my reasoning is sound and based in facts everything I have said you are free to test and come to the conclusion I am providing. Posting statements that I'm wrong doesn't make you right. nobody with an active differential cares about stagger including wiseman lockers

 

[XXX#40]

with a fixed steering wheel and no stager in the rear your kart will track strait if aligned properly. stager only affects a solid axle if we were allowed to run a live axle no one would care about stagger you would run the tire that gave you the best ratio. my reasoning is sound and based in facts everything I have said you are free to test and come to the conclusion I am providing. Posting statements that I'm wrong doesn't make you right. nobody with an active differential cares about stagger including wiseman lockers

We are talking about karts with no suspension other than tires.
It's not facts, its bs.
I invite you to try no stagger on the front, and get back to us.......I have tried no stagger in the front, with accelerometers mounted on the kart, so yeah you're clueless

 

[alvin l nunley]

We are talking about karts with no suspension other than tires.
It's not facts, its bs.
I invite you to try no stagger on the front, and get back to us.......I have tried no stagger in the front, with accelerometers mounted on the kart, so yeah you're clueless

I could be wrong, but I think you're both talking about different things.

Never have tried any of this stuff but; with no stagger in the rear, and with or without stagger in the front, if I sit in the kart and someone pushes it, it's going to go straight. (Pretty much) If I have no stagger in the front, but LTO stagger in the rear, if I sit in the kart and somebody pushes it, it's going to turn left. The radius it will follow pretty much depends on the amount of stagger on the rear axle. In general.

 

[mike97760]

My first kart for dirt oval racing was an Emmick straight rail that was pretty fast at the time. First thing I did, after looking at all the other karts, was to put a big right front tire on it because everyone else has big right front tires. It was a pig, absolutely would not turn. Put the original 6 inch RF tire back on and it was pretty fast again.

 

[paulkish]

My first kart for dirt oval racing was an Emmick straight rail that was pretty fast at the time. First thing I did, after looking at all the other karts, was to put a big right front tire on it because everyone else has big right front tires. It was a pig, absolutely would not turn. Put the original 6 inch RF tire back on and it was pretty fast again.

IMHO the reason it happened that way is the big RF reduced the unloading of the LR and it went straight instead of turning left.

It would have been great turning right. ????
hummmm, what if ya would have put the big tire on the LF instead? nawwww, don't even want to think about it. ...

 

[jaymancds]

Maybe your reading comprehension sucks, but cant you show me where I said they wasnt? TIA ill hang up and listen

In the post he quoted, you said they werent welded in different locations. Maybe your reading comprehension sucks.

We are talking about karts with no suspension other than tires.
It's not facts, its bs.
I invite you to try no stagger on the front, and get back to us.......I have tried no stagger in the front, with accelerometers mounted on the kart, so yeah you're clueless

It is facts. Stagger only works to turn the kart on the back. The only thing front stagger changes is ride height and weight. It does not directly change anything. Suspension or no suspension, front stagger does not make the kart turn. Now with that, if you add stagger, you are adding cross, changing your load transfer, and raising the right front. With that said, you are not directly making the kart turn with a front stagger adjustment like a rear stagger adjustment.

with a fixed steering wheel and no stager in the rear your kart will track strait if aligned properly. stager only affects a solid axle if we were allowed to run a live axle no one would care about stagger you would run the tire that gave you the best ratio. my reasoning is sound and based in facts everything I have said you are free to test and come to the conclusion I am providing. Posting statements that I'm wrong doesn't make you right. nobody with an active differential cares about stagger including wiseman lockers

Right!

 

[paulkish]

It's been said here many times that LTO karts pull to the left. That would indicate to me that the LR is the sliding tire rather than the driving tire. The LR is the sliding tire, rather than the RR,

Yes it has been said many times. One reason for the pull to the left is the front end and the other which sorry to say Al is you still can not allow yourself to associate how rear tires are loaded to cause them to function and it's obvious you can only think in terms of sliding a tire to control grip. It's about controlling BOTH the sliding and gripping of both rear tires to accomplish what's needed to roll a staggered solid axle smoothly around a turn.

It use to be Al oval racers could not think about setup with any thoughts other then controlling grip, which was 100% correct.
Today Al in order to free up lower powered karts thoughts of how to control the amount of slip and grip are worked together to run as close as possible to the limit of grip at the highest speed. Ideally Al the only limit of speed in both turns and straights is using all your of available hp with the least rolling resistance. Those are the objectives and the debate now is always about how to accomplish it at different parts of the oval.

If no stagger, weight jacking and unloading the inside rear tire is the most efficient way to use all your available hp, with the least rolling resistance only needing to turn left, then it is what will win the most.
But it isn't able to preform and win at a high or even a low level with limited hp, only needing to turn left per empirical data.

Lefty righty racers just don't seem to understand it and are stuck on unloading the inside rear tire as the 100% solution to racing with a solid axle.
What I think they all fail to realize is unloading the inside rear does two things:
1. Yes it lets the fronts only have to turn the outside rear tire in a turn.
2. But until and unless grip at the inside rear tire is totally removed the inside tire is providing an anchor/brake or rudder for the outside rear tire to roll around.
3. Another thing lefty righty racers seem to not realize is all stagger is doing is allowing for better use to the point of total use of the inside tires ability to provide an anchor/brake or rudder.
4. Lefty righty racers think in terms of slipping and unloading the inside rear tire and LTO racers think in terms of how they need to slip and grip either the LR tire, the RR tire or Both rear tires.

... maybe LTO racin is to redneck common sense complicated for inteletusual lefty righty racers? ...

 

[95 shaw]

I think kish is somewhat on the right trail. (in post 56)

It still all comes down to the tire contact patches. Tire sizes and stagger vary the size and shape of the patches, as does wheel loads.
The contact patches could care less where the loads come from, or the shape of the mechanism providing the load. Statically speaking right now.

Dynamically, the chassis design varies the load distribution to the wheels via the VCG and geometry, as well as the spring rate of the chassis.

The goal being to produce the correct amount of grip at each wheel to produce the quickest lap times.

Randomly changing tire sizes requires a rethinking of the rest of the chassis to arrive at the same point.

Most will do well to get the baseline tire size setup provided by the manufacturer working well with their tire selection.

 

[paulkish]

Suspension or no suspension, front stagger does not make the kart turn.

If you push a sprint kart with a big RF on it, won't it turn and not push straight?
answer: Yes
The reason the answer is yes is because the bigger RF tire caused all the other stuff to happen because the cause of it turning was putting a big RF on it. ...