Track Tac

Cross VS Stagger

jaymancds said:
In the post he quoted, you said they werent welded in different locations. Maybe your reading comprehension sucks.

It is facts. Stagger only works to turn the kart on the back. The only thing front stagger changes is ride height and weight. It does not directly change anything. Suspension or no suspension, front stagger does not make the kart turn. Now with that, if you add stagger, you are adding cross, changing your load transfer, and raising the right front. With that said, you are not directly making the kart turn with a front stagger adjustment like a rear stagger adjustment.

Right!
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He said welded at extreme, they are not, so its not mine that sucks.
Your welcome to try no stagger on the front then you'll find out why stagger on the front is important
 
XXX#40 said:
He said welded at extreme, they are not, so its not mine that sucks.
Your welcome to try no stagger on the front then you'll find out why stagger on the front is important
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No one is saying it isnt important. We are just saying that it doesnt DIRECTLY make the kart turn.
 
You guys are getting agressive for no reason. Front tires are on a different axis when they turn. The reason for the stagger regardless of front tire position is to help it rotate into the turn. If you have too little or none in the front its not going to turn very well. So yes it does help the kart turn in as its helping the weight rotate around.
 
just read my post #58... WOW that's a tough poor prose read, sorry for the sloppy writing

... but heck it's the same way I talk so I guess that makes it proper prose. ... :)
 
mike97760 said:
My first kart for dirt oval racing was an Emmick straight rail that was pretty fast at the time. First thing I did, after looking at all the other karts, was to put a big right front tire on it because everyone else has big right front tires. It was a pig, absolutely would not turn. Put the original 6 inch RF tire back on and it was pretty fast again.
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My best analogy is the dyno...

On the dyno we have a well tuned engine.

We try a new exhaust pipe and its about the same power, we then have to go to jets to confirm we are getting all of the power that pipe has to offer.

Its the combination, maybe, probably, possibly you would of been faster if you worked to balance the kart with the larger tire.
 
front 'stagger' is for weight jacking rear stagger is for getting the rear around the corner with a fixed axle. the big tire on the left front is for weight transfer/ traction . ask any kart chassis manufacturer why the front end is the way it is. and a Kart has a suspension its where the chassis bottle necks between the front and rear tires. give a kart a bearing hub on the right rear, no stagger and your lap times improve guaranteed . whenever you want the front end to get around the corner feel free to turn the steering wheel.
 
paulkish said:
If you push a sprint kart with a big RF on it, won't it turn and not push straight?
answer: Yes
The reason the answer is yes is because the bigger RF tire caused all the other stuff to happen because the cause of it turning was putting a big RF on it. ... :)
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Are you saying it will turn? why would it turn? unless the steering wheel is making the front end point it either to the left or right there is no reason the kart will turn it will just be going down the track at an angle but strait none the less. lefty righty racers have giant seat struts welded to the chassis to lift the inside tire off the ground and eliminate it from the equation no rudder involved if they can help it.
 
J'-remy said:
why would it turn? unless the steering wheel is making the front end point it either to the left or right?
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The steering wheel will turn if either the driver turns it or if grip with the track turns it.
Your kart will not turn because the steering wheel makes it turn.
It ONLY turns if something makes the steering wheel turn.

Your example IMHO is incorrect and impossible the same as it's impossible for the trigger on a gun cause it to shoot.
I guess it's politically incorrect to say a steering wheel does not turn the kart, only drivers and the interaction with the track turns karts. ... :)
... and the root of all problems out on the track is the steering wheel. ... :)
The only way to create a perfect race is to get rid of steering wheels, all racing equipment and those who race.
... :)
 
paulkish said:
The steering wheel will turn if either the driver turns it or if grip with the track turns it.
Your kart will not turn because the steering wheel makes it turn.
It ONLY turns if something makes the steering wheel turn.

Your example IMHO is incorrect and impossible the same as it's impossible for the trigger on a gun cause it to shoot.
I guess it's politically incorrect to say a steering wheel does not turn the kart, only drivers and the interaction with the track turns karts. ... :)
... and the root of all problems out on the track is the steering wheel. ... :)
The only way to create a perfect race is to get rid of steering wheels, all racing equipment and those who race.
... :)
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Sorry this argument has gone beyond reasoning. a gun with no trigger will not shoot if I lock the steering wheel it will not turn unless I have stagger and fixed axle driving the rear wheels. When I travel down the strait with an axle with stagger I am fighting the kart from turning and scrubbing speed while doing so. why my very first statement of setting stagger in the rear should be a compromise between getting around the corner and maintaining roll speed down the strait. feel free to test what I am saying to be true. I really don't care if you believe me.

In a perfect race the following would happen as soon as the kart crossed the finish line. 1 the frame would fall apart 2 all 4 tires would bust. 3. the engine would explode 4. the chain would snap and 5. the driver would die of exhaustion. only then would you know everything was working 100%
 
J'-remy said:
front 'stagger' is for weight jacking rear stagger is for getting the rear around the corner with a fixed axle. the big tire on the left front is for weight transfer/ traction . ask any kart chassis manufacturer why the front end is the way it is. and a Kart has a suspension its where the chassis bottle necks between the front and rear tires. give a kart a bearing hub on the right rear, no stagger and your lap times improve guaranteed . whenever you want the front end to get around the corner feel free to turn the steering wheel.
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I built chassis, and worked for a major chassis manufacturer for 9 years.
How many have you built and help develop?
 
J'-remy said:
Sorry this argument has gone beyond reasoning. a gun with no trigger will not shoot if I lock the steering wheel it will not turn unless I have stagger and fixed axle driving the rear wheels. When I travel down the strait with an axle with stagger I am fighting the kart from turning and scrubbing speed while doing so. why my very first statement of setting stagger in the rear should be a compromise between getting around the corner and maintaining roll speed down the strait. feel free to test what I am saying to be true. I really don't care if you believe me.

In a perfect race the following would happen as soon as the kart crossed the finish line. 1 the frame would fall apart 2 all 4 tires would bust. 3. the engine would explode 4. the chain would snap and 5. the driver would die of exhaustion. only then would you know everything was working 100%
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Lol, you do realize the right side wheel base is longer than the left?

This guy lives in fantasy land
You lock the steering wheel and push it, the offset in wheelbase will cause it to go left.
The same tire that slips at speed will do the same when empty and being pushed
 
The stagger in the front is greater than the rear. by your logic the front end of your kart is making a tighter radius than the rear with no input from the steering wheel. any vehicle that steers with the front wheels makes a wider radius with the front wheels and a tighter radius in the rear (have you ever gotten your font end around a tight corner and your rear wheel hits the curb or why trucks need to make wide right turns.. this is not fantasy its facts. believe what ever you want
 
J'-remy said:
The stagger in the front is greater than the rear. by your logic the front end of your kart is making a tighter radius than the rear with no input from the steering wheel. any vehicle that steers with the front wheels makes a wider radius with the front wheels and a tighter radius in the rear (have you ever gotten your font end around a tight corner and your rear wheel hits the curb or why trucks need to make wide right turns.. this is not fantasy its facts. believe what ever you want
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We are talking about offset oval karts not cars.
Did you know a perfectly setup kart will go through a corner with almost no input front the driver ?
You do know the rear of an offset kart, is offset to the right of the front tires by almost 2 inches?
And again, the right side wheelbase is longer than the left, and the cassette hangers are welded in at different locations?
No stagger in the front isnt always larger than the rear, some are exactly the same
 
I agree a kart will turn by itself because of the rear stagger. not the front. I am well aware of the right front lead built into the kart. the front of the kart/car takes a wider track around a corner than the rear so you would want less stagger in the front and more in the rear. If i have you correct your telling me chassis manufacturers want the kart to be set up to do doughnuts at every point on the track. really? they want the front end to turn even down the strait at the wrong radius? please tell me the manufactures with this feature so I may avoid their chassis at all cost. and I will race my kart here in fantasy land
 
alvin l nunley said:
It's been said here many times that LTO karts pull to the left.
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That being true Al shouldn't the amount of pull to the left just pushing and rolling an LTO kart with the driver in it be set to the Minimum arc traveled on the straight of an oval?
And then Al wouldn't it make sense to then adjust to use on track forces to increase the amount of pull to the left when needed in turns?

Thanks your statement got me thunkin towards setting up baseline with two objectives instead of the one of setting weight outs and angles to an average of what's generally needed per the track your going to race.
The new addition will be to set the amount of pull to reduce rolling resistance on the semi straights to match the arc of the most important straight.

thanks Al for the eye opener

paul

edit: Here's an on going setup scenario:

1. Set it to push roll with driver in it on the arc of the straight if there is one.
2. Then reset weight outs to what makes it fast and operating as needed thru the corners.
3. Repeat 1 and 2 until it rolls as needed on the straight with the weight outs needed for corners.

After writing 1, 2, and 3, it instantly became clear to me to do so will require the knowledge and experience to be able to separately adjust and blend together things which alter grip and weight distribution, mechanical and dynamic weight transfer.

edit again: The ideal kart would become one which you could thru adjustment and tire alteration complete step 3.
 
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Front stagger isn't "stagger," as oval people mean it for the rear. The exact same effect could be achieved by moving the spindle up in it's C on the left, or down in its' C on the right. It affects the static loading, typically adding MORE initial load to the right front with a positive stagger setup. It reinforces the diagonal relationship between the LR and RF (cross)

In the rear, additional diameter means additional circumference, which creates a higher surface speed at the contact patch. This means that that RR is pushing back FASTER than the LR, and this is the basis of stagger -- making an induced YAW force to turn the front to the inside of the turn more easily. On full size cars, they must be steered to the right to go straight down the straighaways. Karts are so underpowered that this effect is minimized. I'm highly tempted to create a ZERO KPI, ZERO TOE, Low caster front end with a calculated stagger setup to match whatever track I'm at and try a dual rail tunable front end with blade adjuster and 28mm chassis...
 
J'-remy said:
I agree a kart will turn by itself because of the rear stagger. not the front. I am well aware of the right front lead built into the kart. the front of the kart/car takes a wider track around a corner than the rear so you would want less stagger in the front and more in the rear. If i have you correct your telling me chassis manufacturers want the kart to be set up to do doughnuts at every point on the track. really? they want the front end to turn even down the strait at the wrong radius? please tell me the manufactures with this feature so I may avoid their chassis at all cost. and I will race my kart here in fantasy land
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Not front lead, depending on the manufacturer either the left or the right cassette are moved forward or back.
And no it's not spinning out because we use the rear axle to square toe.
Stagger in the front helps preload the spring across the front, no front stagger you'd have to build the chassis a different way to obtain the cross %s we run
 
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