Box Stock

Different Clones hp

B

Bob Curtis

Member
There are several 212 cc clones on the market. Ducar, Tillotson, Predator, Honda ect. Do they all put out the same hp?
Asking because we have a small 1/15 mile dirt oval that we have organized races on. Last season we had one class, adult stock appearing predator. We included the ghost. I have had people ask about running a 212 Tillotson and a 212 Ducar. Trying to figure out if we should add them to our class.
We are adding a stock 212 predator asxax2nd adult class. Basically, no governor, open pipe, no billet parts and drum clutch. We will keep it strictly as a 212 predator as there is also a claiming rule on it.
 
First understand that a clone, in the organized racing world, is a 196cc engine. The 212 came along much later and was slowly introduced in stock appearing and more loosely governed classes mostly at a local level. To this day a clone is at a national level a 196cc engine with a lot of rules attached. Do not refer to a 212 as a clone. The 212 is the worlds most popular rototiller engine and hp does not matter. Out of the box their HP numbers vary quite a bit because to their intended market it doesn't matter. The Ducar and Ghost has cleaned up these power differentials quite a bit. If it were me I would toss the Predators and make the Ducar or Ghost the only legal engine. Nobody is reporting inconsistencies in either engine.
 
Of course theres difference's.
Especially in stock appearing
If there all 212 S.A. cc isn't the deciding factor.
 
The ghost is nothing more than a harbor freight 212 with a high performance carb and an exhaust. It still has internal issues that can be manipulated. The Ducar 212 from Dyno Cams has a set of rules that are helpful for tech. I have been ask to inspect it for the purpose of adding it to the AKRA as a class for competition. I have 3 in the shop. They are consistent with the exception of the centerlines. There are areas of the head that I am designing specs for to stop any foul play that may take place. When I get that engine finished I think it will be a great addition to AKRA for the beginner karter. There is another engine out there that is actually BUILT to a spec. When the 206 became problematic, in terms of not being able to buy the engine or buy parts because of the transfer of business with Briggs & Stratton, Tillotson jumped on board and created a 212 RS I believe it is. That engine was also sent to me by Tillotson for inspection, and review for the same purpose of adding it to the Racing program. I was extremely impressed with the amount of specs that are on nearly everything in that engine, including Weight of some of the parts, like the clone has. However I tried to convince them that if they did this correctly that engine could be put on dirt, and I almost guarantee that it would take off like wildfire. Problem is the cost of it was above and beyond what the average karter wanted to pay for an engine. Not any more than what the clone guys are paying for what they consider a national engine. That engine has not taken off.
 
mike97760 said:
First understand that a clone, in the organized racing world, is a 196cc engine. The 212 came along much later and was slowly introduced in stock appearing and more loosely governed classes mostly at a local level. To this day a clone is at a national level a 196cc engine with a lot of rules attached. Do not refer to a 212 as a clone. The 212 is the worlds most popular rototiller engine and hp does not matter. Out of the box their HP numbers vary quite a bit because to their intended market it doesn't matter. The Ducar and Ghost has cleaned up these power differentials quite a bit. If it were me I would toss the Predators and make the Ducar or Ghost the only legal engine. Nobody is reporting inconsistencies in either engine.
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The ghost is overpriced and overrated in my opinion. And if you think there are no inconsistencies with the ducar you live under a rock. We have bought several ducar 212s and couple just plain suck and a couple run ok and one hauls the mail. This was after all the legal love you could give them. And just like dyno Don said, every ducar I have checked had a different centerline.
 
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DynoDon said:
The ghost is nothing more than a harbor freight 212 with a high performance carb and an exhaust. It still has internal issues that can be manipulated. The Ducar 212 from Dyno Cams has a set of rules that are helpful for tech. I have been ask to inspect it for the purpose of adding it to the AKRA as a class for competition. I have 3 in the shop. They are consistent with the exception of the centerlines. There are areas of the head that I am designing specs for to stop any foul play that may take place. When I get that engine finished I think it will be a great addition to AKRA for the beginner karter. There is another engine out there that is actually BUILT to a spec. When the 206 became problematic, in terms of not being able to buy the engine or buy parts because of the transfer of business with Briggs & Stratton, Tillotson jumped on board and created a 212 RS I believe it is. That engine was also sent to me by Tillotson for inspection, and review for the same purpose of adding it to the Racing program. I was extremely impressed with the amount of specs that are on nearly everything in that engine, including Weight of some of the parts, like the clone has. However I tried to convince them that if they did this correctly that engine could be put on dirt, and I almost guarantee that it would take off like wildfire. Problem is the cost of it was above and beyond what the average karter wanted to pay for an engine. Not any more than what the clone guys are paying for what they consider a national engine. That engine has not taken off.
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the ghost is not a standard predator. it is the same motor as the ducar 212 and the tillotson 212. they all have a hemi head with longer valves and springs than the standard hemi predator. each motor is speced differently carb flywheel cam etc from harbor freight, dynocams and EC
 
Bob Curtis said:
There are several 212 cc clones on the market. Ducar, Tillotson, Predator, Honda ect. Do they all put out the same hp?
Asking because we have a small 1/15 mile dirt oval that we have organized races on. Last season we had one class, adult stock appearing predator. We included the ghost. I have had people ask about running a 212 Tillotson and a 212 Ducar. Trying to figure out if we should add them to our class.
We are adding a stock 212 predator asxax2nd adult class. Basically, no governor, open pipe, no billet parts and drum clutch. We will keep it strictly as a 212 predator as there is also a claiming rule on it.
Click to expand...
I Think theres a question then a statement in this ^
You want to add the tilloston and ducar too your stock appering class .
are they better then the ghost or predator in stock appering form?
...
the statement is: we are adding a stock predator class with local option rules .
 
the tillotson 212, the ducar 212, and the ghost are the same motor. the dynocams ducar has a PLV flywheel and better timing, the ghost has a better carburetor. I know less about the tillotson other than it's the same motor.
BUT....
if you were to let people run the 212 with a harbor freight style carb, a PLV flywheel and an exhaust pipe with a rules set like dynocams has....you may just see the end of the 196 motor.
 
You might see the end of the 196 but be prepared to get your check book out because a full blueprint of a 212 with a complete rules package would be costly.
 
DynoDon said:
You might see the end of the 196 but be prepared to get your check book out because a full blueprint of a 212 with a complete rules package would be costly.
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how will it cost more than the 196? the block is nearly the same price and the rest of the parts fit. labor is the same.
 
I don’t recall saying it would be more. A fully blueprinted clone by a reputable name exceeds $1200. I have seen them for $1600 and people pay it!!! Won’t be any different with the 212
 
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DynoDon said:
I don’t recall saying it would be more. A fully blueprinted clone by a reputable name exceeds $1200. I have seen them for $1600 and people pay it!!! Won’t be any different with the 212
Click to expand...
narrowing down the classes from multiple predator, jr, champ and clone classes........priceless
 
DynoDon said:
The ghost is nothing more than a harbor freight 212 with a high performance carb and an exhaust. It still has internal issues that can be manipulated. The Ducar 212 from Dyno Cams has a set of rules that are helpful for tech. I have been ask to inspect it for the purpose of adding it to the AKRA as a class for competition. I have 3 in the shop. They are consistent with the exception of the centerlines. There are areas of the head that I am designing specs for to stop any foul play that may take place. When I get that engine finished I think it will be a great addition to AKRA for the beginner karter. There is another engine out there that is actually BUILT to a spec. When the 206 became problematic, in terms of not being able to buy the engine or buy parts because of the transfer of business with Briggs & Stratton, Tillotson jumped on board and created a 212 RS I believe it is. That engine was also sent to me by Tillotson for inspection, and review for the same purpose of adding it to the Racing program. I was extremely impressed with the amount of specs that are on nearly everything in that engine, including Weight of some of the parts, like the clone has. However I tried to convince them that if they did this correctly that engine could be put on dirt, and I almost guarantee that it would take off like wildfire. Problem is the cost of it was above and beyond what the average karter wanted to pay for an engine. Not any more than what the clone guys are paying for what they consider a national engine. That engine has not taken off.
Click to expand...
What are the the centerline values? Thanks
 
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