Does stagger depend on driving style

Ask him for his spread sheets and do it for yourself. He sure doesn't want to be wrong no matter what.

I don't think he could handle being wrong on anything, must have been something instilled in him when he was a kid.
Probably got pounced on by his parents or care takers if he was wrong on anything or criticised to no end when he was a kid.
... sad he's been that way as long as I've know him on the net and it's over 20 years. ... :(

And what's really bad is I keep trying to over look it and be helpful only to be stepped on again and again.
And it's like I can't run away from it because it just keeps coming back.

edit: I guess i'm no better and won't ever believe that i'm not better. ... :)

thanks for listening Ken

LOL, I don't remember my Dad ever telling me I did a good job on anything.
But I also realize i've never been a hard worker and also to this day don't remember ever finishing anything either. ... :)
 
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alvin l nunley said:
With that number my spreadsheet says 1 3/8 stagger. I'm using 34 inches as the circumference of the right side tire.
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You would have to help me understand your math to convince me the accuracy of it, just based on common knowledge alone the closer the track width the tighter the kart ends up, so how would the measurement being less center to center if accurate require LESS rear stagger ?
 
paulkish said:
thank you and it says your spread sheet in this case is 'right on'

Good Job Al
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It may match what his spread sheet shows, but after a somewhat explanation of how he's doing his math I would question the spread sheet info being " right on ", It's a guide just like know the accurate track size and nothing more !!
 
I would trust that Todd Godwin's info that a 50 ft corner radius of the LR on a flat track, that perfect rear stagger of 1.722 is " right on ", and you don't have to be as smart as Todd or Al to figure out a 40 ft radius would require " MORE "
 
racing promotor said:
It may match what his spread sheet shows, but after a somewhat explanation of how he's doing his math I would question the spread sheet info being " right on ", It's a guide just like know the accurate track size and nothing more !!
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bricklayer653 said:
I agree dont think his program is to accurate
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LOL.... hey, yer fast and his spread sheet says you should be on less stagger, no matter what XXX#40 says... lol and ... :devilish:

this has been fun and a learning experience
 
racing promotor said:
You would have to help me understand your math to convince me the accuracy of it, just based on common knowledge alone the closer the track width the tighter the kart ends up, so how would the measurement being less center to center if accurate require LESS rear stagger ?
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Think of the two circles, one inside the other, each would have its own circumference number. Now, think of the outer circle getting smaller and the inner circle getting bigger. At some point they're going to be the same circumference, right? The closer your tires are together, the smaller the difference in the length of the path they are following, the less the stagger needs to be.
 
alvin l nunley said:
Think of the two circles, one inside the other, each would have its own circumference number. Now, think of the outer circle getting smaller and the inner circle getting bigger. At some point they're going to be the same circumference, right? The closer your tires are together, the smaller the difference in the length of the path they are following, the less the stagger needs to be.
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More proof it's not that easy and what works on paper doesn't work on track, just like change a gear and go 16 mph faster.
 
So I have been reading along and trying to sort things out ...thanks paulkish for your lengthy explanation of how left rear works but I'm also getting the feeling that from others who have responded and pointing out things that if I changed about set up that would only make loose in worse ....saying my nose weight is low for a Triton and saying there is more speed to be had without any explanation confuses me because I cant jack up nose weight without making loose in worse I'm thinking....my caster being high is the same problem I'm thinking...yes I could maybe change to 2 degrees of split instead of 3 degrees but I probably wont feel a difference with 1 degree ...saying that rear stagger only affects exit is strange also because I can feel difference on entry also...and if you look at cheat sheets on loose in problem one way to fix is lower rear stagger and yes it is lower on the list of things to do ... thanks for all the responses but I'm thinking there may not be a clear answer
 
bricklayer653 said:
So I have been reading along and trying to sort things out ...thanks paulkish for your lengthy explanation of how left rear works but I'm also getting the feeling that from others who have responded and pointing out things that if I changed about set up that would only make loose in worse ....saying my nose weight is low for a Triton and saying there is more speed to be had without any explanation confuses me because I cant jack up nose weight without making loose in worse I'm thinking....my caster being high is the same problem I'm thinking...yes I could maybe change to 2 degrees of split instead of 3 degrees but I probably wont feel a difference with 1 degree ...saying that rear stagger only affects exit is strange also because I can feel difference on entry also...and if you look at cheat sheets on loose in problem one way to fix is lower rear stagger and yes it is lower on the list of things to do ... thanks for all the responses but I'm thinking there may not be a clear answer
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There is, but you and race promoter want to argue your fact.
Fact, your seat is too high, and caster too high for your situation, remember at entry weight goes forward....and thats all I say
 
XXX#40 said:
There is, but you and race promoter want to argue your fact.
Fact, your seat is too high, and caster too high for your situation, remember at entry weight goes forward....and thats all I say
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Theres no argument here I appreciate all input my comments were as much a question as statements....I asked if lower my caster would help even though the caster was put in to help with loose in ...and do you have a seat height recommendation? I'm truly not arguing just asking questions cuz I dont know the answers...I'm under the impression that most loose in problem is overloaded rf or under loaded rr is that the wrong way to think of it ? If not then if I lower seat wont I transfer less to rr ? And I truly posted this for discussion value for me to learn plz dont take it as I'm disagreeing with you but trying to find out if I'm thinking totally wrong and that's how we learn
 
bricklayer653 said:
I cant jack up nose weight without making loose in worse I'm thinking
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All I talked about was how I think the LR 'generally' works on a staggered solid axle racer.
All of it netted out to less stagger is allowing you to race with less weight in general on the LR.
That's pretty much all of it and all of what my long writing was trying to point out.

BUT, if your fast your fast no matter if your fast with what others say are unconventional setups or not.
That's all GOOD.
The problem I see you and Ken have is if you do try to run with more weight on the LR and more stagger it brings handling issues to the table.
And because your fast it isn't worth it to sort out those issues and why would you if your fast now.
We have always mainly because of low budget looked for ways to beat fast conventional by understanding how tires need to be used and doing things differently to not try to gain and edge but to make what we have to work with better.
Better means making what we have to work with do what we want it to do to over come on track problems and lack of hp and tires.

My thoughts on how a staggered solid axle needs to be used to be at it's most efficient have not changed and IMHO you or anyone else should be able to use different combinations of stagger and weight/grip at the LR and be equally successful. If one combination works better then the other IMHO it is circumstance and track condition specific. I look at on track performance for problems, needs and ways to shift function to better suit the current racing condition. Some times you just need more work over all out of the LR and sometimes you need less. Stagger and your ability to apply weight /grip to the LR and the amount of each you use can be adjusted to suit specific situations.

This is not a sprint car board but here's something I have come to know is true winged sprint car racing. Step on the gas because it's impossible to spin out a winged sprint car going into the corner.
The only time i've ever seen a winged sprint car which is able to use it's LR so much spin out going into the corner is when they either overlooked something and had an unknown chassis bind at the LR corner or were new and their chassis was bound up.
The result is the bind(which a kart lacking suspension is always in) unloaded the LR tire and the RR could not hold them in.

All that to say yes you can run successfully with more stagger if you change the over all working of your chassis, assuming your tires are correct, to be able to place and hold additional weight on the LR at the right times.

Right now your fast and it appears you don't need to do it. But you get loose when you add stagger because when you do it you do not do the other things necessary to gain the added grip you need at the LR to be able to use more stagger.
As I so often say and taking credit for my original theory which looks at it in this way:
If you change stagger your altering the difference in surface speed between the left and right tire. The change will either free up the LR or allow you to better use the LR as a brake/anchor to enable the RR to roll around it, depending on your ability to apply weight to the LR. There more to it then that but that's the basic.

... or not because this is all just IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway? ... :)

now where's that second cup of coffee?
 
So if your fast and the chassis is working, the whole thing could be as simple as working on LR or RR tire pressure for a given day/condition.
A little less in the RR to help it stick or raise the LR to help tighten entry. Lets face it, no matter what chassis changes we make it all comes
down to how the tire contact patch applies that change to the racing surface. Traction (or lack of) and rolling resistance are things we all
have to control to be successful on a given day. JMHO.
 
MHSWildcat said:
So if your fast and the chassis is working, the whole thing could be as simple as working on LR or RR tire pressure for a given day/condition.
A little less in the RR to help it stick or raise the LR to help tighten entry. Lets face it, no matter what chassis changes we make it all comes
down to how the tire contact patch applies that change to the racing surface. Traction (or lack of) and rolling resistance are things we all
have to control to be successful on a given day. JMHO.
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I agree I was just looking to gain knowledge and figure out why it is the way it is and m
XXX#40 said:
There is, but you and race promoter want to argue your fact.
Fact, your seat is too high, and caster too high for your situation, remember at entry weight goes forward....and thats all I say
Click to expand...
And one thing I will ad is alot of the races last year were run on Burris 11s ...not much bite in track ...that was another reason for 10/13 caster setting again maybe wrong on my part just throwing that out there
 
I have a suggestion for you. The next time you scale the kart, while you are in it try turning the wheel 10 degrees to the left and check the
weight change. Then try 10 degrees to the right and note the weight change. When you run loose, you end up turning slightly to the right
to control any slide. Look at the chassis numbers to understand what you are changing by turning the steering wheel. The caster will load and
unload certain wheels depending on turning right or left. The more caster you run the more dramatic the change. Try different caster settings
and re weigh to see what you changed. If you want to learn why things do what they do, you need to see the actual changes on the scales.
The same applies to stagger front and rear, tire pressures, rear track width (move the LR in and out). Since we are all stuck at home, spending
a day working this out will only help you understand how to fix this yourself and understand when you make a change what happens to the kart.
 
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