Does stagger depend on driving style

Real quick I always ran the axle free on the LR bearing too.

Which one you might run loose for what reason has been discussed many times on here but not recently.
A search may help.

I remember the end result of the discussions were based on input from "fast guys' that you pin the axle on both sides the same as it came from the factory, put your factory baseline to it and the rest is tires.

Let's hurt your heads and others instead of mine.

Why do you do it?
What problem did it solve?
Did you just do it and got faster so you kept doing it?

How does it go along with running less stagger?
Just to be clear were not questioning doing it with less stagger, were questioning doing it in lieu of less stagger and less nose, would it cure the loose in and end up faster as the end result ?
 

95 shaw

Premium User
My question is what kpi LF spindle are you running.
Spacers, or tight in?
Also question overloaded RF or under loaded RR.

Or the methodology for correcting.
 
My question is what kpi LF spindle are you running.
Spacers, or tight in?
Also question overloaded RF or under loaded RR.

Or the methodology for correcting.
Confirmation please questioning that loose in is most always caused by an overloaded RF or under loaded RR ?
Please be more specific on methodology of correcting .
 

95 shaw

Premium User
Noticed in a couple recent threads, the fix was to increase cross.

Doesn't that add to an already overloaded Rf, or take from an under loaded Rr? Seems counterintuitive to me.
Maybe the description of diagnosis itself is misleading?
 
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Noticed in a couple recent threads, the fix was to increase cross.

Doesn't that add to an already overloaded Rf, or take from an under loaded Rr? Seems counterintuitive to me.
Maybe the description of diagnosis itself is misleading?
In my own head I've always questioned the same thing, but learning from reading most every set up and analysis manual out there, they all tell you the same thing and show adding cross as a go to, and then applying it on track that was my end result, now adding cross would not be my first go to but have seen it work, so being a proof's in the pudding kinda guy and not having to understand the physics 100%, I just chalked it up to not being a physicist and over my head anyway.
 

95 shaw

Premium User
In my own head I've always questioned the same thing, but learning from reading most every set up and analysis manual out there, they all tell you the same thing and show adding cross as a go to, and then applying it on track that was my end result, now adding cross would not be my first go to but have seen it work, so being a proof's in the pudding kinda guy and not having to understand the physics 100%, I just chalked it up to not being a physicist and over my head anyway.
I don't doubt it works, just the description.
Maybe a throwback to low cross setup days?
Naw, that doesn't work either.

Most everyone talks about weight leaving the Lr. That has to happen. I prefer to discuss where that weight goes, before it returns to the Lr.

To me, makes easier to make sense of adjustments.
 
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alvin l nunley

Premium User
All my experiences is with Sprint racing, but this should hold true with LTO. What's it going to hurt to try?
Push; too much rear bite or not enough front bite.
Loose; too much front bite or not enough rear bite.
Push cure; narrow the front or widen the rear.
Loose cure; narrow the rear or widen the front.
Second line of cure; change the front to rear weight percentage; i.e. move the seat.
Push; more front percentage.
Loose; more rear percentage.
Hint; moving the seat, forward or backwards, 1 inch, is a ton of change.
On the Sprint track, these "always" held true.
 
Just for my nickel in this, I was always told (at least for dirt) that we enter on the RF and it transfers to the RR then to the LR on exit.
This sort of makes sense because when you turn in the weight is on the RF. As the Kart enters the mid corner the entire right side is loaded.
As the kart exits the corner, we straighten the steering wheel ( turn to the right ) and the caster causes the weight transfer from RF to LR.
 

paulkish

Premium User
Just for my nickel in this, I was always told (at least for dirt) that we enter on the RF and it transfers to the RR then to the LR on exit.
This sort of makes sense because when you turn in the weight is on the RF. As the Kart enters the mid corner the entire right side is loaded.
As the kart exits the corner, we straighten the steering wheel ( turn to the right ) and the caster causes the weight transfer from RF to LR.
IMHO, yes

============================

IMHO adding to it, what determines your fast because of maintaining momentum is the speed you enter and if your entry is accompanied by deceleration, acceleration or a maintained speed. It sets up when and what you can do with and in between the transfer from the RF to the RR. I think the magic balance the driver can put into a turn beyond setup is how their driving causes, maintains and moves weight/grip from the RF to the RR. It's the driver who controls brake, >>>insert arc<<<, turn, accelerate. The "insert arc" is the maintaining of your momentum the rest is either slowing down or accelerating.

MHSWildcat I know you can relate to when you see a car time trial and just looking slow over all, when the announcer shouts through the microphone "QUICK TIME".

What was watched IMHO during the time trial was not a slow car. You watched a car ease or carry all the needed momentum into entry and no more and then conserve the momentum thru most of the turn, with only enough go pedal to do it, maybe even bringing up the rpm's because of additional grip at the right side tires. IMHO a driver cannot be fast until they learn how to carry "the" needed speed not only as far into a turn as possible but learn how to carry that speed into a turn as far as is "needed" to setup for exit.

I think you can relate to this too: Sure you can carry perfect maximum speed as far as possible into a turn but what happens if you carry it too far is ........... you'll push when you need to exit. ... maybe???? That "fact" demands your turn onto exit always is a new turn and has to be accomplished with all the attributes of entry and the turn which took you to the start of exit.

... and I ain't sure bout it because it is all just IMHO and ain't necessairly right anyway. ... :)

butt..... maybe????

now where's that afternoon coffee?
 
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95 shaw

Premium User
Maybe overlooked is how it all gets started.
On a hammer down low hp kart, weight transfer is initiated by the Lf adding a bit of weight to the Rr, via weight jacking, which gets the weight moving. Also added load starts making stagger effective.
 
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MHSWildcat I know you can relate to when you see a car time trial and just looking slow over all, when the announcer shouts through the microphone "QUICK TIME".
I totally agree. When the driver is relaxed and the car/kart is rolling the corner smoothly it can look like slow motion compared to someone
who is all arms and elbows forcing the car/kart through the corner.

95 Shaw - I agree that the LF begins the entry, but it also depends on how much caster is in the setup for it to do any weight transfer.

Positive caster works when the spindle stub moves forward ( towards the nose) or backwards ( towards the read axle). In trying to make this
simple, moving the stub forward raises the wheel in relation to the chassis effectively removing weight from that location. Moving the stub
back will lower the wheel in relation to the chassis, effectively adding weight to that location. That said, arcing into or turning into the corner
the caster will make the chassis transfer weight by adding weight to the LF and removing weight from the RF. The amount would be variable
depending on caster amount, wheel offset, front stagger, degree of steering input (how much you need to turn the wheel) etc. The whole
effect causes the chassis to "De-wedge" or remove cross however you see it on turn in.


Ideally, if we could, depending on the track, set the caster split so the driver would not have to turn the steering wheel to roll the center of the
corner. He/She should only have to turn the wheel to exit the corner. The caster split should do the entry and center without steering input.
I would take lots of research to find this ideal, but it is possible. Pavement guys do it all the time because their tracks don't change like the
dirt does. Once again I recommend setting up your kart with your regular deal and putting it on the scales and turning the steering 10 or 15
degrees and checking the weight, turn it the same the other way and check the weights. Then you will know how your chassis transfers weight.
This will vary greatly depending on many factors (total weight, age, chassis flex, caster settings, seat position, etc.) this is why your numbers
will vary (sometimes a lot) from somebody who may have the same stuff. Ever wonder why some people with virtually the same setup really
haul and you can't seem to find it, this is why.

Richard Childress said it best - "Success is where opportunity meets preparation"

Do your homework - Go Fast.
 

95 shaw

Premium User
I totally agree. When the driver is relaxed and the car/kart is rolling the corner smoothly it can look like slow motion compared to someone
who is all arms and elbows forcing the car/kart through the corner.

95 Shaw - I agree that the LF begins the entry, but it also depends on how much caster is in the setup for it to do any weight transfer.

Positive caster works when the spindle stub moves forward ( towards the nose) or backwards ( towards the read axle). In trying to make this
simple, moving the stub forward raises the wheel in relation to the chassis effectively removing weight from that location. Moving the stub
back will lower the wheel in relation to the chassis, effectively adding weight to that location. That said, arcing into or turning into the corner
the caster will make the chassis transfer weight by adding weight to the LF and removing weight from the RF. The amount would be variable
depending on caster amount, wheel offset, front stagger, degree of steering input (how much you need to turn the wheel) etc. The whole
effect causes the chassis to "De-wedge" or remove cross however you see it on turn in.


Ideally, if we could, depending on the track, set the caster split so the driver would not have to turn the steering wheel to roll the center of the
corner. He/She should only have to turn the wheel to exit the corner. The caster split should do the entry and center without steering input.
I would take lots of research to find this ideal, but it is possible. Pavement guys do it all the time because their tracks don't change like the
dirt does. Once again I recommend setting up your kart with your regular deal and putting it on the scales and turning the steering 10 or 15
degrees and checking the weight, turn it the same the other way and check the weights. Then you will know how your chassis transfers weight.
This will vary greatly depending on many factors (total weight, age, chassis flex, caster settings, seat position, etc.) this is why your numbers
will vary (sometimes a lot) from somebody who may have the same stuff. Ever wonder why some people with virtually the same setup really
haul and you can't seem to find it, this is why.

Richard Childress said it best - "Success is where opportunity meets preparation"

Do your homework - Go Fast.
My challenge is to remove tie rods and lock 1 spindle pointed straight ahead. Turn the other spindle your 10 degrees each way and see which is actually transferring weight.
Depending, can be a real eye opener.
 
Agreed, but considering they work together to transfer input to the chassis how does locking one give you an accurate record of transfer?
Now if you said you were placing one side at zero caster and working with varying amounts on the other it would make sense to me.
The other thing you need to factor into this is the scrub radius on the left and right sides while allowing for the caster changes and then
tire width and pressures. This gets detailed quick. They say "Knowledge is power" so whatever you can learn on this would be a benefit.
 

95 shaw

Premium User
On a modern lto chassis, because of scrub radius, you will find Rf does little for weight jacking at turn in.
 
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