Dry Clutches?

I know 2 cycle jackshaft clutches typically have a steel basket, purple springs and bolts in every other lever. I have a Sudam, but it’s a 300LB package with the driver. I would think a 4 disk bully is overkill and I have a bunch of 2 and 3 disk 4 stroke bully’s laying around. What’s stopping me from replacing the basket for a steel one, putting in purple springs and bolts in every lever? Any secret sauce that I’m missing or issues with that thought process?
 
Is your Sudam a 125 on Racing Gas or Alky? Is it a 131 with duel carbs or a big single? A lot of things might come into play for down sizing from a 4-disk to a 3-disk. If you change to a 4-cycle clutch, you might want to change the levers as well. Go for it!
 
I agree , nothing to stop you . The 4 disk is just another improvement over the three disc . Maintenance is the only issue after its ability to hold the power .
A stinger - I saw one in use ,odd but appeared to work just fine .
 
I think a well maintained 3-disk Buller, Tomar, Horstman or LT can support the Sudam. I campaigned a two disk MDC for years behind a IKF stock Yamahas when everyone else was running the three disk Bullies. I did run 4-disk Tomars behind my open TT75s. One a bull 100cc and the other an outstanding 124cc. Wear was minimal with weekly maintenance.

DK
 
I know 2 cycle jackshaft clutches typically have a steel basket, purple springs and bolts in every other lever. I have a Sudam, but it’s a 300LB package with the driver. I would think a 4 disk bully is overkill and I have a bunch of 2 and 3 disk 4 stroke bully’s laying around. What’s stopping me from replacing the basket for a steel one, putting in purple springs and bolts in every lever? Any secret sauce that I’m missing or issues with that thought process?
Like you, I've done it myself many times, let my pocketbook chime in on the decisions. Totally understandable!
Whenever I set the clutch, my main concern was not adding the proper (according to present theory) weights, it was adding what ever weights were required to hold the engine at peak torque RPM at the start of acceleration. With the engine being held at peak torque, that torque is transferred to the rear axle through the chain. With peak torque at the axle, you have peak horsepower at the axle. While the clutch is slipping, the horsepower at the engine, and the horsepower at the axle, are different. Torque X RPM/5252.1 = HP. The faster the axle spindles, the more horsepower. Once the axle RPM X the gear ratio, is equal to the engine RPM, the HP is the same at both.
Some people contend that the more discs you run the more your acceleration is affected. I don't agree. Any calculation of the power it takes to accelerate something has to include the speed of the acceleration. I'm sorry, when you're accelerating down the straightaway, those disk or accelerating so slowly, I feel it would be impossible to measure the difference in acceleration that adding one disk could cause. My personal concern would be with the amount of power that's being transferred to the rear axle. Just speculation, but would 4 discs do a better job than 3? I sure would like to see some dyno results testing that theory.
 
I know 2 cycle jackshaft clutches typically have a steel basket, purple springs and bolts in every other lever. I have a Sudam, but it’s a 300LB package with the driver. I would think a 4 disk bully is overkill and I have a bunch of 2 and 3 disk 4 stroke bully’s laying around. What’s stopping me from replacing the basket for a steel one, putting in purple springs and bolts in every lever? Any secret sauce that I’m missing or issues with that thought process?
We run 3 disc vortex clutches on our UAS karts, one is a crf450 and the other is a wankel. The only thing SMC told us to do was to run them at higher rpm than you would a 4 disc due to the lower amount of friction material. Upping the clutch rpm increases the clamping force the levers place on the discs.
 
As Pete Muller's tech articles said, you should run the heaviest springs and heaviest weights you can for more positive lockup, IIRC. Maybe He'll chime in.
 
As Pete Muller's tech articles said, you should run the heaviest springs and heaviest weights you can for more positive lockup, IIRC. Maybe He'll chime in.
I don't think he said "lock up" I think he was talking about the weights getting increasingly heavier as the RPM increases. It's a square function.
 
For your reading pleasure:

{This document "cleaned up" a bit in July, 2000}
In this article, I will attempt to explain how different weights and springs change clutch action. No doubt some of you have been told by a racer or clutch manufacturer: "You need these new weights and springs" or "You need the tungsten weight kit". Chances are you've never been told why you need them -- only that you "need" them to go faster (or solve your clutch problems).

Hopefully, after reading this article, you'll have a good idea of how and why these changes to the springs and weights effect clutch action.

In previous magazine articles, I've mentioned how a clutch could theoretically be designed for a kart that would be [almost] totally horsepower insensitive (in other words; slip at almost the same rpm no matter how much or how little power is applied). The mathematics behind this theory are not complicated. To simplify things even more, we will assume that this is a very simple 2-shoe centrifugal clutch (no weights bolted to the shoes, no pivoting shoes). The theory, however, is exactly the same no matter what type of clutch it is: from the most exotic zillion spring, tungsten weight disc axle clutch (or even a clutch on a Top Fuel dragster, for that matter) to the simplest fun-kart clutch. All clutches have some type of mechanism that converts some type of centrifugal force to pressure between friction surfaces, so the theory will always be the same.

The formula for centrifugal force is: Force = .000341 Wrn²

"W" is equal to the weight of the "shoe" (in pounds)

"r" is the radius of the center of mass of the shoe (in feet) from the center of the clutch

"n" is the speed of the rotating weight in rpm [which gets squared in the formula]

Or in plain English; The force the shoe will apply [to the friction surface] is equal to:

.000341 x (weight of shoe) x (radius of the center of mass [in feet]) x (rpm squared)



In order to proceed with this theory (without making it overly complicated), we should make some basic assumptions:
Let's assume the following for the sake of simplicity:

  1. Each shoe needs to exert 100 pounds of force (at 10,000 rpm) onto the friction surface in order create enough drag to stall the engine at 10,000 rpm. (By "stall", I mean that if you hold the brake, and give the engine full throttle, the engine will notrev any higher than 10,000 rpm.) What type of engine we use is not relevant to this example, so we'll just assume that 10,000 is the "right" rpm.

  2. The center of mass of the shoe is at 1.2" radius -- (in other words: .1 feet). Note: This means 1.2" from the centerline of the crankshaft... in other words: from the center of rotation of the entire assembly.

  3. This clutch has NO springs at all, just 2 shoes flying out against the bore (inside diameter) of a drum.
    (once again: it makes absolutely no difference if the clutch is a 12-finger, 5-disc Top Fuel dragster clutch, or a 2 shoe centrifugal clutch on a mini-bike... friction is friction, force is force... nothing changes except the size of the numbers).
Now in order to solve for the weight of the shoe, the formula will have to be turned around a bit:

W (weight of shoe) = 100 (pounds) divided by [.000341 x .1(radius) x 100,000,000(rpm²)]

Trust me on this -- the solution will give us the weight that the shoe needs to be in order to apply 100 pounds of force to the friction surface at 10,000 rpm. The answer is .0293 lbs. The shoe needs to weigh .0293 lbs (on a scale) in order to apply 100 pounds of force to the friction surface at 10,000 rpm.

Actually, it's not necessary to figure out the weight of the shoe to show you what more spring and weight do to clutch action, but knowing how the formula works will give you a better understanding of the following examples.

Now to the good stuff...

To show what effect more spring and weight have on a clutch, we first need to calculate what amount of force the shoe (in our imaginary clutch) will exert at say... 9900 rpm and 10,100 rpm. This will give us a good idea of how rapidly the force increases with rpm... or how rapidly it decreases with rpm. (Remember, this clutch has NO springs whatsoever).

To calculate how much force the shoe will exert at 9900 rpm, all we have to do is multiply the force (100 pounds) by (9900 rpm)² and divide by (10,000 rpm)².



In other words 100 (pounds) x 98,010,000 / 100,000,000 = 98.01 pounds (of force @ 9900 rpm)

And... 100 (pounds) x 102,010,000 / 100,000,000 = 102.01 pounds (of force @ 10,100 rpm)

We now have a good idea of how this imaginary clutch "acts" above and below the stall rpm.

You can see that the force increases or decreases very gradually with RPM.

Now let's make a RADICAL change to the internals of the clutch:

We add a 500 pound spring to each shoe (in other words, a spring that is trying to pull the shoe toward the center of the clutch)... so in order for the shoe to still exert 100 pounds of force to the friction surface at 10,000 rpm, the shoe will actually have to apply 600 pounds of force (of which 500 pounds is overcome/balanced by the spring). So the shoe needs to weigh SIX TIMES as much in order to accomplish that. The shoe now weighs .1758 pounds (it used to weigh .0293 pounds which we have multiplied by six).

Our shoe now "weighs" 600 pounds at 10,000 rpm, but just like before, it applies 100 pounds of force to the friction surface. (remember: 500 pounds is balanced by the spring)

Now let's go back to solving this for 9900 and 10,100 rpm.

So.... 600 x 98,010,000 / 100,000,000 = 588.06 lbs (minus 500 pounds being balanced by the spring) = 88.06 pounds !

And ... 600 x 102,010,000 / 100,000,000 = 612.06 lbs (minus 500 pounds being balanced by the spring) = 112.06 pounds !

Now look at the 2 examples ... with no springs, the force the shoe exerted on the friction surface at 10,100 only increased a bit over 2% from 10,000... but with a bunch of spring and weight in the clutch, the force increased over 12% !

Conversely, the force fell off by less than 2% in the first example, but fell off by almost 12% in the second example.

As you can imagine, by carrying this to the extreme, you could theoretically build a clutch that would "stall" a 15hp Yamaha engine at 10,000 rpm, but you couldn't make it "stall" at 10,500 with a 100 HP ! The force on the friction surfaces would increase so radically with only a minor RPM increase, it would be virtually impossible for the clutch to "overslip".

Conversely, you could reduce the power of the motor by 50%, and the "stall" rpm would still be almost 10,000 because the force of the shoe would "drop-off" so rapidly below 10,000 rpm. Remember that the spring force never changes (no matter what the RPM) but the centrifugal force increases or decreases at the SQUARE of the speed.



Now back to the real world ... (where things aren't so mathematical):

No clutch manufacturer has ever figured out how to make the weights in your clutch 5 times as heavy, or how to incorporate an enormous spring into the clutch mechanism. However ... the theory that is illustrated above, shows WHY there has been a slow but steady effort over the years to make the "weight" heavier, and the "springs" stronger in go kart engine clutches. The more spring and weight in a clutch, the more the clutch tries to "hold" a given RPM regardless of how much or how little power is applied.

Increasing the weights and springs by only 50% can make a noticeable difference in clutch action.

Unfortunately, in karting this can (and does) lead to a Catch-22 situation: Making the clutch a bit better leads to the pipe manufacturers building slightly more radical exhaust pipes, which leads to the clutch guys trying to make the clutch better, which leads to the pipe guys trying to ....
-- YOU GET THE PICTURE -- !



Additional notes (and things to think about):
The theory explained in this article... while significant... is by no means the only thing that effects how a clutch works.

Other things that contribute to clutch "action":

  • Coefficient of friction of the friction surface(s)
  • Changes in coefficient of friction with temperature
  • Static vs. dynamic coefficient of friction
  • Rigidity of the clutch assembly
  • Geometry of the "lever" (disc clutches)
  • Radius of the contact point of the lever (disc clutches)
  • Static clearance of the disc stack (disc clutches)
  • etc. etc.
Pete Muller
 
Years ago, a newcomer to the sport, an engineer, and his son, started racing. He was an electrical engineer and his imagination was way ahead of its time. He had 2 tachometers on the kart, one for the engine, and one for the axle. With a little math he could calculate how much slip there was in the clutch, after lockup. I don't remember how much, but there was a difference between the engine and the axle times the gear ratio.
Ever wonder why a direct drive kart in turn so much more RPM than the clutch kart? Lower gear ratio of course, but more power getting to the rear wheels. I believe the introduction of the disc clutch also got rid of some of that slip that the centrifugal clutch had.
 
Al , direct drive doesn't always put more power to the rear wheels. I'd say it would past full clutch lockup, but what about say a tight section on a sprint track where the DD's rpm is pulled down well below it's peak power range, a DD would get left in the dust by a clutched engine, so which put more power to the rear wheels in that section of the track? DD rpm is a result of having to get the engine to perform is the tight sections of the track, which in turn leads to some punishing rpm's for the longest straightaways.
 
I know 2 cycle jackshaft clutches typically have a steel basket, purple springs and bolts in every other lever. I have a Sudam, but it’s a 300LB package with the driver. I would think a 4 disk bully is overkill and I have a bunch of 2 and 3 disk 4 stroke bully’s laying around. What’s stopping me from replacing the basket for a steel one, putting in purple springs and bolts in every lever? Any secret sauce that I’m missing or issues with that thought process?
If you have a 125cc or stronger engine and want to minimize clutch maintenance - suggest you consider an axle clutch to handle the torque. I run an axle clutch with my 135cc K-30.
 
Al , direct drive doesn't always put more power to the rear wheels. I'd say it would past full clutch lockup, but what about say a tight section on a sprint track where the DD's rpm is pulled down well below it's peak power range, a DD would get left in the dust by a clutched engine, so which put more power to the rear wheels in that section of the track? DD rpm is a result of having to get the engine to perform is the tight sections of the track, which in turn leads to some punishing rpm's for the longest straightaways.
I raced 2 Cycle Direct Drive for 2 years, 1977 and 1978, thus I think I speak with some small amount of authority. At the Atwater track, in Atwater California, there are these 2 turns (amongst 9), the 1st 1st, a sharp right turn leading to a short uphill to the 2nd, a hard left. If ever there was a pair of turns where, with your thinking, that a clutch should have an advantage, this was the place. With My Direct Drive Komet, I passed clutch karts there all the time. Not just the back markers, serious Karter's. If you ever drove a direct drive kart, I'm thinking you'd be surprised at how fast they pull out of tight turns. I won the Northern California IKF Championship that year with that direct drive. I think I won every heat I raced in that year except the Nationals. At the 1977 Nationals, I qualified 3rd. A clutch car qualified 2nd. Another direct drive kart qualified 1st.
 
I raced 2 Cycle Direct Drive for 2 years, 1977 and 1978, thus I think I speak with some small amount of authority. At the Atwater track, in Atwater California, there are these 2 turns (amongst 9), the 1st 1st, a sharp right turn leading to a short uphill to the 2nd, a hard left. If ever there was a pair of turns where, with your thinking, that a clutch should have an advantage, this was the place. With My Direct Drive Komet, I passed clutch karts there all the time. Not just the back markers, serious Karter's. If you ever drove a direct drive kart, I'm thinking you'd be surprised at how fast they pull out of tight turns. I won the Northern California IKF Championship that year with that direct drive. I think I won every heat I raced in that year except the Nationals. At the 1977 Nationals, I qualified 3rd. A clutch car qualified 2nd. Another direct drive kart qualified 1st.
Al, You are arguing with a guy that has a whole lot more than a couple of years racing experience and is considered a genius when it comes to carburation and fuel flow. You might want to close your mouth and open your ears and learn a little bit.
 
Al, You are arguing with a guy that has a whole lot more than a couple of years racing experience and is considered a genius when it comes to carburation and fuel flow. You might want to close your mouth and open your ears and learn a little bit.
Well, I've been in and around karting for over 50 years, racing, building writing about it, does that not count?
I have a Facebook page called Mayko Products, you might want to read some of my articles in there.
 
Well, I've been in and around karting for over 50 years, racing, building writing about it, does that not count?
I have a Facebook page called Mayko Products, you might want to read some of my articles in there.
I would have bet a lot of money that you would respond with something like that...… No, it does not count when it's wrong. Continue to wallow in your own ignorance.

Oh, and I have been in karting for 68 years (even before karting officially started) and never met anyone like you, thank god.
 
Sigh. ^^^

So no one can explain the differences between an LTO 4 cycle dry clutch and a 2 cycle jackshaft clutch? I too am curious why the gold standard is the 4 disc bully. I understand the purple springs, bolt/lever combination. But other than that there’s no explanation?
 
All disc clutchs are the same basic design and principal .
The four disc hub might be a heavy duty design from the pictures i see . I have never had one in hand so thats an assumption on my part .
The sprocket disc interface is also different with the tuffy gears and drum .
Beyond that , its a disc clutch .
Give them a call im sure they can tell you its advantages .
 
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