Engine Prices WOW !!!!!

Thanks DarthDuck, good to see your still around. Not what I wanted to hear but thanks just the same. I had forgotten about the share holders/investors. Briggs still claims that 90% of their engines are manufactured in the US. I am now wondering what company makes the clones sold at Harbor Freight and how many Americans do they employee besides the Harbor Freight employees.
 
So let me get this straight . I have been out of the karting world for seven years. In that time somebody gets the bright idea of buying $120 fake engines from habor freight and racing them ? Now the fake engines are costing almost a grand from an engine builder. Clone engines made in China , WTH ? Perhaps I need to do some more research but I highly doubt it will ever make any sense to me. Only thing I can hope is that they just go up in price and then maybe I can get some help in finally starting a true box stock World Formula class around here. Engine, Exhaust Header, Clutch, Carburetor, Air Filter, Fuel Pump, Electric Starter for under a $1000 . More power right out of the box than an Animal, Clone or a Flathead. Oh and the World Formula engines are made in the USA.

Best quote ever. And there is a difference between Briggs and clones concerning where they are "manufactured" and where they are assembled. Like Honda, Briggs contracts for parts to be manufactured at various sites around the world including China. Also like Honda, Briggs is controlling the quality of these manufactured components. My company does the exact same thing, we contract for components to be manufactured all over the world and then do final assembly of the finished machines at our facility in Melbourne Australia so I have first hand knowledge of how it works.

Clones on the other hand are like the wild west of the engine world. From the manufacturing side quality is job 62 and cost/price is job 1. And there is no central control. I was taught in engineering that one of the most important parts of design is base material selection. It's not very glamorous but if you get it wrong your design will never work. You can't make a crankshaft out of aluminum. And that's what the poor engine builders are faced with when building high performance clone motors. There is nothing wrong with the base design of the clone motor, it's the quality of the base components they are forced to use. Important components like blocks, side covers, and cylinder heads. It's like top fuel motors, still based on the hemi design from the 1950's but not one stock Chrysler part remains.

Staring out from the clone racing sidelines I think I see an apocalypse coming. A cheap little fake engine pushed way beyond its base design limits using lots of stock components, very important stock components I might add, and costing +$1K just doesn't seem like a formula for success or sustainability. At our track we just had our winter series of races. Four races with each race being two 8 lap prelims and a 12 lap final. We had on average 8 clone karts. In each race at least one clone kart failed to finish due to motor issues.

Are clones sustainable?
 
So let me get this straight . I have been out of the karting world for seven years. In that time somebody gets the bright idea of buying $120 fake engines from habor freight and racing them ? Now the fake engines are costing almost a grand from an engine builder. Clone engines made in China , WTH ? Perhaps I need to do some more research but I highly doubt it will ever make any sense to me. Only thing I can hope is that they just go up in price and then maybe I can get some help in finally starting a true box stock World Formula class around here. Engine, Exhaust Header, Clutch, Carburetor, Air Filter, Fuel Pump, Electric Starter for under a $1000 . More power right out of the box than an Animal, Clone or a Flathead. Oh and the World Formula engines are made in the USA.

Sad to say if the clones didn't come about their may not have been oval track karting to come back too...
We employee 7 people at our business,, most the outside bolt ons are USA on our clones..
Go to one of the big shops in your state and ask to see the Briggs packaged Parts... Everything has its ORGIN on them... Theirs no more argument over ORGINS anymore...
If you REALLY want a eye awakening experience go to the grocery store and start reading Orgins... It may change your diet..
 
Staring out from the clone racing sidelines I think I see an apocalypse coming. A cheap little fake engine pushed way beyond its base design limits using lots of stock components, very important stock components I might add, and costing +$1K just doesn't seem like a formula for success or sustainability. At our track we just had our winter series of races. Four races with each race being two 8 lap prelims and a 12 lap final. We had on average 8 clone karts. In each race at least one clone kart failed to finish due to motor issues.

Are clones sustainable?
You would have hated the flathead days then. :) The clone is probably a better engine shipped than the flathead ever was.

Hell yes it's sustainable, just like the Macs and the flatheads were sustainable. You can't go through a lawn mower grave yard without tripping over the motors. They're cheap and plentiful, and, most of all, the oval karting market doesn't need "special" motors spoon fed to them. The oval karting market is fully capable of taking care of it's own business and developing whatever motor the racers decide to use.
 
You would have hated the flathead days then. :) The clone is probably a better engine shipped than the flathead ever was.

Hell yes it's sustainable, just like the Macs and the flatheads were sustainable. You can't go through a lawn mower grave yard without tripping over the motors. They're cheap and plentiful, and, most of all, the oval karting market doesn't need "special" motors spoon fed to them. The oval karting market is fully capable of taking care of it's own business and developing whatever motor the racers decide to use.

I agree with Jerry and Bob. I've been in this for over 35 years and if not for the clone I'd be fishing right now instead of working on them. Do I like them, no. But I sure do like how easy they are to work on. Anybody that's been through the hair pulling flatheads has got to love the clones as compared to them. Is racing expensive? As the old saying goes he-- yes, how fast do you want to go? Enjoy it as a family outing and a good way to know where your kids are. How much does trip to the movies cost these days. Everything is relative.
 
JD, thank you for doing what you do. Having your own business and creating jobs on American soil is the whole idea and it is the solution. Plus you are doing it in the karting industry. Hats off to you brother. With that being said I am in no way trying to offend any engine builder/ kart shop by calling the clone out for the * I think it is. I know ya'll are just playing the cards you are dealt so to speak.

Yes, I have been to the grocery store and read the labels. What I read horrified me much more than reading made in china labels on American flags. I now have a freezer full of venison and a pantry full of home grown veggies.

Mikelavite#72 , I am not into the whole bury your head in the sand, screw it everything is made in china way of thinking. I believe if I buy American as much as possible then my neighbor/ fellow American might make enough money to decide to go kart racing. Heck he might even decide to open a kart shop. I believe this to be true because over the last fifteen years I seen it happen, only in reverse.
 
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i think some engine builders motors are a little overpriced, but there seems to be no shortage of people willing to pay those prices. Most of the big name builders are savvy businessmen (or they wouldn't big big name builders), they sponsor some of the biggest names in karting, people see those engines, chassis', tire prep...etc, winning on saturday and come monday morning their phones are literally ringing off the wall by the average racer wanting a piece of the action. Supply and demand will dictate the engine prices, as long as someone is willing to pay $900.00+ for a clone that they think is the missing piece of their program, they will.


bingo.
 
I am an engine builder...mostly v8, but got into clone engines a while back. I buy parts from Dyno cams, Dover Power, ARC, Race City, Checkered Flag, and just got pipes from Levi Rapp (Rapp Fabricating). I have also bought from David Lewis, Lewis Stout, and more I cant think of right now. I use tools bought local, and supplies. How can that not be a good thing?
 
"A cheap little fake engine pushed way beyond its base design limits using lots of stock components".

This is the main reason I went big block. At my weight, on my asphalt track, I was asking too much of a small clone motor. The $300 420cc predator has proven itself to me as a winner, just did my 6th event on this engine and I've done nothing but change the oil. I didn't have to buy a billet rod and flywheel or anything, I target 5700 rpm and aside from header, filter, adapter, rejet, and trick springs inside the stock ones, it's just a carefully prepped out of the box 420cc predator. Asking 15HP from something designed from 6.5HP is going to be a problem, getting 18HP from something designed for 15HP is a bit more realistic.
 
You guys that are paying more than $600 for these clone engines have lost your minds, and are the reason the price has climbed as high as it is now, and will continue to go up. Once people start showing that they will pay a premium price $700+ for an engine, the builders would be stupid not to take advantage of that and increase their profit margin. If racers had not started paying those kind of prices for these clones, the prices never would have climbed that high in the first place, no one is to blame but yourselves. Those of us who build our own know pretty well what it takes to build a good engine that can be competitive, and its alot less than $700 by a long shot. Any engine that is built is only as good as the parts used and the attention to detail, the time spent fine tuning that engine to get the most out of it.
 
Weddle from the time the base engine hits the bench until it ready to bolt on the kart how much time do you put on task?
 
Weddle from the time the base engine hits the bench until it ready to bolt on the kart how much time do you put on task?

I spend anywhere from a day to 3 days on each engine i build myself, about 8 hours or so each of those days. So i guess you can say i have around 24 hours of time on an engine, and thats not counting the time spent tuning it after its all assembled and done, which is usually another 4 or 5 hours. Details details details, the closer attention you pay to the details, the more you learn and the better your build will turn out is something that was pounded into my head when i was first starting to learn about building my own engines. Iv had help and advice from 2 really great builders who both have spent years building engines, one who has been into racing and building engines since the 60's.
 
But, i have alot more time to do things like this than most people do, mainly because i have my own buisness and can choose what days or what hours i work. I work only a couple days a week, sometimes once a week, and make more money in one day of work than most people make in a month at their daily 9 to 5 jobs. That is why i have more time to work on my engines and try new things, just learn new things in general. I grew up in the buisness im in, and its what i love doing, which is farm gate and equipment sales, not engine building or anything like that. Iv always worked on my own engines, whether they be on cars, bikes, gokarts or whatever, iv just always been one of those that would rather take the time to learn to do something myself than pay someone else to do it for me. I am my own pit crew at the racetrack when i race also, i dont have 5 people with me washing my tires, scaling out my kart, timing my laps or anything like that. I have a teammate which is my brother in law, who is running an engine that i built for him this year, and we help each other out at the races. I am not as lucky as some of these guys who have people at the track doing everything for them, sure i could probably find some people to do that if i wanted to, but thats just not how i am, i prefer to do things myself.
 
Weddle from the time the base engine hits the bench until it ready to bolt on the kart how much time do you put on task?

The reason I ask is you questioned the cost of a prepared engine. A legitimate business takes into account all time spent on an engine, procurement, picking of parts, packing unpacking, disassembly, clean up, inspection, measuring, modifications, assembly, start up, tuning, packaging, customer contact time, and numerous other overhead costs.
 
But, i have alot more time to do things like this than most people do, mainly because i have my own buisness and can choose what days or what hours i work. I work only a couple days a week, sometimes once a week, and make more money in one day of work than most people make in a month at their daily 9 to 5 jobs. That is why i have more time to work on my engines and try new things, just learn new things in general. I grew up in the buisness im in, and its what i love doing, which is farm gate and equipment sales, not engine building or anything like that. Iv always worked on my own engines, whether they be on cars, bikes, gokarts or whatever, iv just always been one of those that would rather take the time to learn to do something myself than pay someone else to do it for me. I am my own pit crew at the racetrack when i race also, i dont have 5 people with me washing my tires, scaling out my kart, timing my laps or anything like that. I have a teammate which is my brother in law, who is running an engine that i built for him this year, and we help each other out at the races. I am not as lucky as some of these guys who have people at the track doing everything for them, sure i could probably find some people to do that if i wanted to, but thats just not how i am, i prefer to do things myself.

Please this is not a "LOOK AT ME - LOOK AT ME" thread or a thread about how much or how little you work . or that you can make more money in one day than others here on Bobs can make in a month . these guys are not trying to hear this . this is a thread about the cost of clone engines . not your income . we have ALOT of B4C members that are young and working minimum wage jobs , do their best by their families and still manage to race . they dont want to read about your financial status..........
 
Do you have a DYNO and a Real flow bench or a spring tester not the BSP tech tool?these tools are needed to tune a engine if you dont have one your just a assembler not a builder or tuner regardless what parts you buy without a dyno your just hoping and guessing.
 
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