Engineering perfection

[paulkish]

If that were so,

It is so.

 

[95 shaw]

I


w

 

[paulkish]

huh, did you give in or give up? ...

I'm going by what I was told at Phantom in November of 2017. Maybe things have changed?

 

[krtrcn]

Current set in stone answer: Chassis are designed to be adjusted and fine tuned with tires.

Wow!!!
Then that goes against every available adjustment in a kart doesn't it?
Maybe you need to inform all these chassis builders, because evidently they're doing it all wrong.

 

[sundog]

Well you wouldn't want to adjust and fine tune without tires.

 

[paulkish]

Well you wouldn't want to adjust and fine tune without tires.

Good point

 

[Someone ...]

With each passing year i've been noticing the help forums or the normal setup questions are becoming more and more debatable. No certain advise or adjustment is set in stone. High cross, low cross. Your tires need to durometer this/that and so on... In my opinion, all of the advanced engineering that kart manufacturers are using in the design of there chassis's and all the advanced machining the engine builder's use to build there motors and all the chemistry behind the various forms of tire prep have all formed a alliance of near perfection getting the absolute best of their profession. Most every piece and part of a kart is maxed out to it's limits. So i think to myself, why does it seem like most forums never seem to be set in stone, yes or no, always debatable?
The 1 thing left in this world that hasn't been re engineered, technologically advanced to perfection is us, the humans. We cannot be reprogrammed or rebuilt. We are not and will never be perfect. The software being used to engineer frames, the programs being used for engine's and chemistry into the tires do not allow for variances or imperfections. It would simply through off the formula. So based off my opinion on that, we come to the driver. Drivers and their driving style are equivalent to fingerprints. There's no exact match in the world we live in. A lot of similar styles but none the exact. So as each year passes and the machines we race become closer to perfection and spot on, I firmly believe that the technology has gone to the point to where there is no right answer or adjustment because there are no 2 identical styles or fingerprints.

There are several problems trying to suggest help to other racers, especially over Internet forums.
You never know all of the factors involved, even if the poster tries his best to provide them, because you're not there.
Too many variables keep changing. Track conditions, weather, equipment, driver fatigue...
You can't control how your advice will be interpreted or used.

As Outrider said, engineering designs are full of compromises - it's far from max'd out to its limits. Our science and technology isn't capable of perfect solutions for all situations. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and in the end you don't need to be perfect - you just need to be better than your competition. And maybe a bit lucky. Because there are multiple possible solutions, there will always be debate.

Agree that the biggest variable is the human factor. Not only the ones asking for advice but also the ones accepting the advice.
Some people expect simple direct and perfect solutions that they can implement quickly and cheaply. Sorry, but life is not like that.
Some people honestly offer what they feel is great advice, but due to communications problems and / or incomplete information it falls short. Or they don't realize that what works for them may not work for others - particularly if they stumbled upon that solution and don't understand all of the reasons why it happened to work.

Personally, I don't expect my problems to be solved via an Internet debate. I do like to look at it to get insights and ideas, but I assume that I'll have to massage it before it works for me (if it works at all). That means trying to apply a scientific process to testing and trying out things, as well as noting what really happened.

Don't quit searching, and don't quit debating. But try not to get upset when advice doesn't work, or if others don't appreciate your advice.

 

[95 shaw]

huh, did you give in or give up? ...

I'm going by what I was told at Phantom in November of 2017. Maybe things have changed?

I posted this to show how difficult it is when a partial quote, taken out of context, can be to interpret.

While it may be possible to fine tune with tires only, the fundamental setup must be within range of tire adjustments.
No tire prep will be able to overcome say, raised center of gravity in the extreme range, from a tall driver with a robust upper body.
Use of all the tools available to you can help compromise you closer to the range where a tire adjustment can compensate.

Just my opinion.

 

[racing promotor]

I posted this to show how difficult it is when a partial quote, taken out of context, can be to interpret.

While it may be possible to fine tune with tires only, the fundamental setup must be within range of tire adjustments.
No tire prep will be able to overcome say, raised center of gravity in the extreme range, from a tall driver with a robust upper body.
Use of all the tools available to you can help compromise you closer to the range where a tire adjustment can compensate.

Just my opinion.

I agree but that's where the fine tune was added.

 

[paulkish]

While it may be possible to fine tune with tires only, the fundamental setup must be within range of tire adjustments.

The adjustments are there to put your chassis at the manufactures recommended baseline.
Baseline is seat position(vcg), weight outs and recommended or tweaked front end adjustments. You don't need anything but tires beyond that.

And the rest is tires adjusted to available grip and available hp.

Is there anything left on the table after that besides your drivers skills?
answer: no

 

[Someone ...]

You know I was always thought there's no such thing as a stupid question.

I prove your statement wrong every day.

LOL, no you don't! We can tell that you like kiddin' around...

I used to think that there's no such thing as a stupid question... until I realized that I'd underestimated the abilities of some people.
I've heard dumb questions a lot. Usually from people who insist upon putting their mouths in gear before they had their brains in gear.
One sticks out in my mind. Back when I was teaching electronics, we had just finished discussing different kinds of oscillators for two weeks. Now it was time to discuss where oscillators were used. A kid in the front row of my class asked, "What's an oscillator?"

We had just discussed them for two weeks. He'd been there through all of that. We'd had a test on them. He had gotten an "A".
I think he'd gotten so wrapped up in details that he'd lost sight of the bigger picture. It didn't take much to jog him back on track.
But it made me realize that what I might think is a logical progression might not work for everybody else.

I still do believe that there is a "worst" question, though. It's the one that you were thinking, but didn't actually ask.

 

[paulkish]

Writing the above as usual led me to another

I still do believe that there is a "worst" question, though. It's the one that you were thinking, but didn't actually ask.

If you don't mind I'm going to steal that one from ya?

Back when I was teaching electronics,

teaching story: I was teaching office machine repair when IBM was looking to hire a new tech. I sent students to be tested and none of them passed. Well... After a couple of weeks a few hours a day stand up lecturing on basic electricity, I went and took the test. I was told I was the first person to not miss a question on the test. After two weeks of it all the test questions answers(multiple choice) were obvious with no thinking about the answer needed. I got hired but before they did because I was teaching in a local government program they had to ask the head of the school if it was ok to hire me. He said sure, get him the heck out of here. ...

 

[Someone ...]

Writing the above as usual led me to another


If you don't mind I'm going to steal that one from ya?


teaching story: I was teaching office machine repair when IBM was looking to hire a new tech. I sent students to be tested and none of them passed. Well... After a couple of weeks a few hours a day stand up lecturing on basic electricity, I went and took the test. I was told I was the first person to not miss a question on the test. After two weeks of it all the test questions answers(multiple choice) were obvious with no thinking about the answer needed. I got hired but before they did because I was teaching in a local government program they had to ask the head of the school if it was ok to hire me. He said sure, get him the heck out of here. ...

Of course you can "steal" that. I put it in the public domain as soon as I hit "Post reply".

Yeah, I've also had job offers due to teaching experience. Hard to turn them down, too, since almost every technical job pays better than teaching. Did you ever figure out why your students couldn't pass the test? I've had it happen, and found it was either us assuming the wrong things about what was on the test... or the students weren't really understanding the concepts because while they could memorize facts and formulas they didn't understand how to apply them.