Heres my opinion....i run clones and the suck.... The are too inconsistant when it comes to tech. I just seen the top six get tossed at a race for valve springs and ive raced with these guys for years and theyve never got dqed... Seen guys tosses over a "scratch" on a plastic piece.. Theses motors are built by 13 year chinese kids with no quality control. The purpose of the class is to save money but yet we r paying 1000-1200 for motors that need valve springs every 2 0r 3 races...i wish the 206 class would take off
FH vs. Clone
- Thread starter Ted Hamilton
- Start date
CLIFF BRYANT
Member
Where is the beer and beef jerky! LOL. Remember when the clones were to suposed to just have a pipe,air filter.and a shoe clutch? It would be awsome if a crate engine class was formed and kept, AS OUT OF THE CRATE.
older n dirt
Member
Even dirt late models have tryed this crate motor thing and it just does't seem to last very long. Theres always someone some where that has to tweak here and there on there motor, it just seems to go on and on . JMO.. Its Racing !
Never seen the question asked so I'll ask it. What exactly is the difference between todays racing clone motors under all the new rules, and an animal stocker on gas? Also, I think that L206 class would be great especially for a guy that just wants to bolt in a motor and race, but obviously not enough racers themselves want to be equal with motor or it would have taken off.
GeorgeHenry
New member
FH rules , for the FUN factor
rainman
Member
Problem are not the engines, but people. Any engine will run good and cheap stock, but there will always be someone messing with them and braking the rules even when they are consistent. Next step to allow this guys comes a change in the rules and so on. Only solution for a stock class again is draw for the engines and seal gas and oil or fuel from common tank. Why can´t be room for regular classes and a completely stock one? It is even good for builders and shops because it allows racing to guys who can´t afford or don´t want to afford builder engines. It also attracts new drivers that can later move up and anyway they will always need parts, tires, pay entries and other. IMO the karting business made a huge mistake by being too greedy when stock clones appeared.
I would have to agree 100% that's why I point out that to the guys who push the 206 they are not 100% sealed so there will come a day when monkey's want to monkey and then we are down the same road again. the biggest problem with the clone had to do with the fact that guys like myself started clones in our area which brought a bunch of new guys in. This was great and it got a lot of fresh blood in, the problem was the fresh blood wasn't all just guys who couldn't afford a flathead. these were guys who had the funds to compete in other classes and just hadn't for one reason or another. So when those guys kept getting beat by us guys who had their program together then the new guys became the ones on here that's always thinking he needs more power instead of the right tire pressure. so he took his cash to a hungry engine builder who gladly took his money and pushed to have this new part and that new part because "the specs are all over the place". we had more different feature winners and more karts at our track in the clone class when "the specs were all over the place" then we have now so whats that tell you other then the "leveling the field" idea of the cl1 and stuff did more to line peoples pockets then it did to help the sport
BrendanFitz #73
New member
The lo206 from Briggs is a sealed block and there is only one head you can put on it. And one carb you can put on it. This class works because the engine has a 6100rpm rev limiter so it can only handle so much. And in turn keeps cheaters and people who tinker ant bay. I've seen animals on methanol race against these at my local track and they are even if the weight difference is large enough. The clone is really inconsistent with the build quality and the rules are littered with gray areas which instead of being a bsp class its turned into a RWYB class JMO...
Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
I run the UAS series because, ironically, it's less tech hassle and cheaper (!!) than the clone class -- I got a 100cc for $400 and clutch/etc. for another $200. That's for about 30hp.... All I have to do is post my weight on the nose of the kart and roll over the scales and I'm done. That's how I like it. On top of that, parity seems closer than the stock classes because it's as much a tire game as raw HP. I see a large portion of the stock classes lapped in a feature, less percentage in the UAS. (Though I'm a "lapper", so I get to admire the rear of the leaders' karts twice.)
I think I'm going to get a clone for max number of options and the possibility of earning some cash back. If I can find enough people to do a Predator LITERAL BOX STOCK (stock box muffler and overhead tank...literally slide on a $30 max-torque and run 'em....) then I'll switch to that.
Thanks for all the input, and I agree with nearly every post above. Cheers, ~Ted
I think I'm going to get a clone for max number of options and the possibility of earning some cash back. If I can find enough people to do a Predator LITERAL BOX STOCK (stock box muffler and overhead tank...literally slide on a $30 max-torque and run 'em....) then I'll switch to that.
Thanks for all the input, and I agree with nearly every post above. Cheers, ~Ted
the problem with that type of rules is the predators stock filter is pretty much nothing and it makes for a pain for throttle hookup, stock tanks break and fall off along with the stock muffler does too plus burning the out of your arm. when we started clones we had a spec 5/8 pipe, allowed the filter adapter and remote tank was optional. that was fun now 5 years later it's not fun any more
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Russell 99
Member
Get a fh from jrpw and rebuilds are close to $300 bucks can't buy a clone for that. Clone prices are outta control for what you are getting out of them. They are like tvs unpredictable and made in china. Run your fh for years to come as you can bore to 50 over now, lookout clones they are making a comeback. Nobody says you have to run these clones, it's the racers choice. If you have no fh class then start one up and watch how many guys stop running the clones
Get a fh from jrpw and rebuilds are close to $300 bucks can't buy a clone for that. Clone prices are outta control for what you are getting out of them. They are like tvs unpredictable and made in china. Run your fh for years to come as you can bore to 50 over now, lookout clones they are making a comeback. Nobody says you have to run these clones, it's the racers choice. If you have no fh class then start one up and watch how many guys stop running the clones
but remember your fh need rebuilt way more often so if you go as far as 10 races between rebuilds. say your tracks has a 15 race season you can get 2 years out of one clone for 750 or 900 just for upkeep on your fh ,rebuild on a clone is 65 bucks worth of parts and very ez to do even at a builder say it's 250 in labor that's 1000 for 60 races 17 bucks per race. so say you got a fresh fh for 400 over 60 races is 6 rebuilds so that's 2200 37 bucks per race and that's if and a very big if you don't have to buy a new block or have it sleeved in that time.or say you buy a new fh so add another 800 to that which puts you 3000 @60 races is 50 bucks real math doesn't lie. are clone prices still out of control for what you get out of one?
BrendanFitz #73
New member
Yes clone prices are still out of control. And a flathead has much less chance of detonating on you. Your clone, in order to get as many races as you say it will, will need all sorts of high quality parts. Which don't come stock but neither does the flatty. And with the clone the valve springs need to be changed every 3 races or so. I'd rather run an engine that at least is safer if it does explode. I've seen clones detonate and tear the top of the block of. Flatheads blow and normally the rod end puts a hole in the front of the block. So which really is the cheaper motor? Both have a chance of letting go at any time but the quality of the clone isn't as good as a Flatty.
XXX#40
2A supporter
I can tell you wasnt racing the flatty while the only rod choice was the stock rod.
Thousands upon thousands of clones raced every weekend, and the only ones we hear about exploding are modified, or assembly error
The flathead flywheel hasnt been made in many years and the ones racing now have had plenty of abuse, when does it let go?
Cranks, good blocks and carbs are getting harder to come by
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
They are not 100% sealed. That is by design, so that you can do maintenance (valves, seats, head gasket, carburetor cleaning, etc.) I'm certain that PLENTY would like to "monkey" with these engines, but the reality is that there is little you can do legally (within a very tight set of rules that haven't changed every 6 weeks like the clones.) Of what little "grey area" there is in the LO206 rules, there's not enough power to be made that anyone is messing with it. When they first came out, the deck height was similar to that of the animals, so we sometimes cut the deck to get the pop-up right. Now, they are so close to spec right out of the box, that there is no advantage to decking. Do all the tricks you can think of to the head and carb, and you're still less than $300 in "trick time" to the Lo206.
The bigger problem with the class is that some racers don't want to be on a "level playing field." You take away their advantage of being able to outspend their competition on the latest "trick of the week." The 206 gets better with more races on it, so there's certainly no advantage in freshening it more often than your competition either. With the advantage not available in the engine package, the racer has to pick up his tire game, chassis set-up and driving skill.....This puts all the weight of the performance of the kart squarely on the shoulders of the driver in most cases (since he's the same on making tire selections and chassis adjustments.) That's a little uncomfortable for a lot of racers. In some areas, the class has caught on well, and in others, you can't get enough for a class.
As an engine builder I often get asked why I am in favor of a sealed engine class. Keep in mind that I also operate a full kart shop. If I only built engines, there would be little reason to promote the LO206 platform. As a parts retailer, however, I see a huge advantage to offering racers a competitive engine package that is undeniably durable. I've seen sales of consumables (air filters, chains, oil, tires, etc) increase dramatically over the past couple of years. Racers are still spending money, just not on engine rebuilds and constant updating to the latest legal parts.
Is the idea of a sealed engine class infallible? Of course not. I think it is a great step towards curbing costs and enforcing rules though. Currently it is working extremely well as apposed to the current tech drama with the clones. Some times though, the class that makes the most sense, isn't the one that grows.
We've seen engine packages come and go over the years -- from Macs & West Bends to Yamahas & piston ports; Briggs & Tecumseh to clones & predators. The strongest that karting ever was, is clearly when we had one dominant engine package -- the venerable old flathead. You could take that same engine anywhere in the country and know that you would have a full class of racers to compete with.
Jamie, referring to flatheads said: "Cranks, good blocks and carbs are getting harder to come by" Really? There as easy as picking up the phone or stopping by your local kart shop / engine builder. The imported carbs for the flatties are very good. For several years now we've been allowed to replace the valve seats, so finding "good flowing" blocks is no longer a problem. Sure, still some are better than others...certainly not as different as clones in that respect. I'm not buying this argument at all. Just wait until the valve spring rules change (again) on the clones, and you'll all be crying for a billet rod in them. haven't we been down this road previously with the flatties?
Things are so fragmented now, that even shops can't make a recommendation on what engine package or brand of tires you need to get started racing karts, without first knowing where you are going to be racing and what classes are offered there. The whole mess will run it's course eventually. It will need to or we'll be stuck with 20 classes of few karts similar to what has happened to rc club racing.
Ted, what you said is absolutely correct about the UAS deal. The appealing part is that there is so much less "update of the week," little question on legality, constant tire game, and all the associated politics. When you can overpower the rear tires and put the driving back into the driver's hands, it takes a lot of the expensive nonsense out of the equation that you find where everyone is looking for a slight advantage. For what it's worth, I think the UAS deal also better prepares a driver to take the next step to a larger race car where you will invariable be overpowering the tires.
Thanks,
Brian
If you are not running national's,or racing 3 times a week then do not worry about rebuilding the flatty every 8-10 races. I have raced mine 15-17 nights a year with no issues. I do a leak down check weekly,and change oil after heat races each night. The serious traveling racer has more than one engine in the trailer, and rebuild's are not an issue. The average play time racer does not require a fresh engine every week. I have a bsp clone,and will run the flatty over the clone most any day. Untill they change the valve spring rule to a more reliable piece they can keep them.
Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
Santiago -- I'll take a max torque and paypal you some $$... thanks... ~ted