Box Stock

Getting rid of hondas?

F

fredjones

New member
Please people....Boycott these tracks and let honda perform like they should....so sad. Another Bubba decision
 
Too many people wanting to keep adding more things to the list and add more classes every year is what is causin so many people to want out of karting or sell out. We dont need more engines or more classes, we need to be getting the ones we already have perfected and working properly and fair to everyone before even thinking about adding more to it. That is one reason the clones are the way they are now, too many people wanting to keep adding more upgrades and things like that, which in turn makes everyone have a harder time in the tech room and be there longer also. Its all unneccesary when things could have been alot simpler and easier for everyone. Adding the honda's to the clone classes would cost the races a ton more money and would cause alot more headaches than we already have, not to mention it would give the racers with deeper pockets alot more of an advantage over the budget racers who cant afford them. If your talking about honda's being ran in a class of their own that might work, but why have 2 classes for an engine that is basically the same thing except one is better quality and more than twice the price? If people want to race honda engines, they can run them in open or outlaw classes, thats my opinion.
 
The honest truth is Hondas have no advantage over clone engines when race prepared to the same stock class rule set. More often than not the clones perform better. The problem becomes a matter of cost. Some Honda parts are better than clone and some clone parts are better than Honda. Right now shops and builders are constantly searching for the best clone parts to build with. By adding Honda a business must now double it's inventory to offer both and the search for the better parts and castings doubles adding more cost to both. Honda is generally viewed as a higher quality engine and their parts are more expensive. Many feel they will have to have a Honda to compete when the truth is the opposite. Better quality does not necessarily equate to better performance and many Honda parts are the exact same items as clones they just come in a Honda box. Adding the Honda engine will quite simply add cost and confusion to an already troubled class.
 
Renegade for the most part nailed it. This is part of the confusion issue, and was consistently the feedback that we received.

And Fred, keep in mind that nobody has a Honda, no tracks have it as part of their class structure, and there is zero industry infrastructure set up to handle it. Doing this now eliminates even the smallest future issue or investment from occurring. It just makes the Honda a non-issue. We worked on it...it didn't fit right...and we've moved on. We'll keep working every day to see if there are ways to make the sport better. This wasn't one of them.
 
Renegade said:
Honda is generally viewed as a higher quality engine and their parts are more expensive. Many feel they will have to have a Honda to compete when the truth is the opposite. Better quality does not necessarily equate to better performance...
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I have to assume you misspoke. If you don't care about quality, I am not sure we are on the same page.
 
Where did I say I don't care about quality. You are attempting to put your own spin on my words, are you in politics? Do not try and twist what I say to fit your agenda. I said Honda is viewed as a higher quality product, but there are some very high quality clone parts out there too.

Just because you build your engine out of genuine Honda parts does not mean it will have superior performance over an engine built with clone parts.
 
The point is most now whine about the cost of Clone engines prepared for racing, I will guarantee the whining will increase by three when the cost of your engine increases by three. I have gone through the cycle at one point a 14cc #1 Honda head could easily fetch $200. Just wait and see how well these can be marketed, and don't think for a minute that racers won't buy them. I have boxes of Honda parts right now that are worthless with the clone market as it is now, I could only hope your sanctioning bodies allow Honda, look out Ebay, the value of this stuff would come back.
 
winnerscircle said:
If as they state there is no performance gain and they meet tec specs. What is the problem? Cost should not be an issue. but a personal preference. Other tec specs are written to accommodate OEM suppliers so long as they meet tec specs and are not a performance advantage and generally cost more. IF this is the case your argument makes no sense.
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We dont need another motor in a class causing even more confusion than already has.
Karting has too many motors allowed in now, adding another in a "stock" class isnt going to help anything.
 
Weddle Racing said:
Too many people wanting to keep adding more things to the list and add more classes every year is what is causin so many people to want out of karting or sell out. We dont need more engines or more classes, we need to be getting the ones we already have perfected and working properly and fair to everyone before even thinking about adding more to it. That is one reason the clones are the way they are now, too many people wanting to keep adding more upgrades and things like that, which in turn makes everyone have a harder time in the tech room and be there longer also. Its all unneccesary when things could have been alot simpler and easier for everyone. Adding the honda's to the clone classes would cost the races a ton more money and would cause alot more headaches than we already have, not to mention it would give the racers with deeper pockets alot more of an advantage over the budget racers who cant afford them. If your talking about honda's being ran in a class of their own that might work, but why have 2 classes for an engine that is basically the same thing except one is better quality and more than twice the price? If people want to race honda engines, they can run them in open or outlaw classes, thats my opinion.
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the thing is is that there is NO DIFFERENCE so they are not harder to tech...something is wrong here......there are alot of used Hondas out there and you are Killing them for no reason...
 
SoCo Tire Treatments said:
We dont need another motor in a class causing even more confusion than already has.
Karting has too many motors allowed in now, adding another in a "stock" class isnt going to help anything.
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This was exactly what i was saying in my post at the top of this page. Why can people not leave things the way they are and let the rulemakers get this class straitened out first before adding more and more to it? It seems as if some actually want to cause more problems for this class by adding honda into the mix.
 
Kart43 said:
The point is most now whine about the cost of Clone engines prepared for racing, I will guarantee the whining will increase by three when the cost of your engine increases by three. I have gone through the cycle at one point a 14cc #1 Honda head could easily fetch $200. Just wait and see how well these can be marketed, and don't think for a minute that racers won't buy them. I have boxes of Honda parts right now that are worthless with the clone market as it is now, I could only hope your sanctioning bodies allow Honda, look out Ebay, the value of this stuff would come back.
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someone in the organization dislikes hondas....there is no freaking difference in hondas and clones...they use mostly the same parts....you can say what you want but I still do on understand the removing of honda....
 
fredjones said:
the thing is is that there is NO DIFFERENCE so they are not harder to tech...something is wrong here......there are alot of used Hondas out there and you are Killing them for no reason...
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Quarter Midget guys run hondas as well as mini cup and kart sprint racing so plenty of people race them now
 
fredjones said:
someone in the organization dislikes hondas....there is no freaking difference in hondas and clones...they use mostly the same parts....you can say what you want but I still do on understand the removing of honda....
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Honda has never been allowed under WKA, IKF, AKRA rules, you need to take that up with NKA and your local track
 
it's really not a matter of too many motors, it's the classes themselves....you have one motor, say a stock appearing, and then you have 5 classes arranged by weight under that....so you have one guy that weighs in at or over the highest weight and races in all the classes. this is the stupid part...why? get three classes....light, medium and heavy. limit racers to two of those classes...

karting is going to suffer until more control is made over the classes. you can't do anything about the motors as long as you have as many classes as being run right now. there is no major difference in the motors now, what makes you think that outlawing anything honda is going to cure the problem? it won't. all your doing is creating confusion. if you have a honda head and a clone head and they tech the same, then what's the big deal? because you don't want to buy a genuine honda head? or is it that you want to, but can't afford one? you can't have it both ways....and to boycott a motor or parts because you don't want them or do want them and no one else does? again, you can't have it both ways.

like i posted on another thread....i haven't met a racer yet that says they don't want more power....and if they say that the motor they have is fast enough....then they ain't no racer.....

honda parts or engines are not going to go away, nor will anyone listen to someone that says boycott them when the first guy already has some honda parts in a motor that is powerful and reliable....
 
Regarding the Honda, here are some things we (NKA) found that I'll provide just for the sake of transparency and conversation;
1. They were not as fast as the clones. On average about .2-.4 HP down built basically to existing clone rules. Track testing showed this as well.
2. They were more expensive, but not a lot. The final cost through a builder would have been $150 to $250 more than the average price of a built clone. Since they never were sold on the marketplace, that's just opinion, but it's probably pretty close.
3. They were higher quality. I don't think this is really a finding as most people felt this was the case anyway. However, builders that tested with them told us this as well. They felt that the quality would lead to fewer rebuilds and longer parts usage. Since we didn't test to failure, those..again...are just opinions at this point.

The Honda ultimately generated more questions than answers. Since it did not provide a positive solution, we (NKA) opted to not include it for 2014. I put out a post that covered that topic which is over on the General Forum. I also put it in the clone forum, but noticed it was deleted.

Clone, being what it is, is a very difficult engine platform to manage. With multiple importers, multiple engine configurations, and what seems at times to be a daily evolution of new parts and pieces, it keeps our tech group really busy. However, clone is a very important part of the infrastructure of karting in today's world, and I can promise you that we are working daily to stabilize the class as much as we can so that the investment all of you make in your engines doesn't evaporate. We want all of you going to races, and having fun. Not staying home because the engine you have won't pass tech.

Joe Janowski
NKA, Inc.
 
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