has anyone tried running a pair of 125cc sudans

ttownwideglider

New member
I was wondering what everyone thinks about running a pair of 125 Sudans. Has anyone tried to do this? These engines blueprinted on alky should produce about 40-45hp apiece. That should run down the straits with the 450s and 500 4strokes wouldnt it. If I was to do this I thought about running them on a dual rail kart driving individual jshafts and clutches.Which should help getting rear cross more adjustable. Have questions about setting up the left hand engine. Can it be set up to drive the jshaft on the ignition side? How would you set up the left engine? I talked to a chassis manufactor about building a dual rail chassis in a offsett configuration and it is very doable.I see a lot of siemise and freight train engine setups but have always liked the left and right set up better.I know a lot of guys are running 250 2smoke mx engines but they arent getting this kinka hp and that engine must make rear cross a real nightmare. All sugestions welcome.
 

tchase

New member
This is of course for the UAS guidelines. Here is a link to the 2014 rules... http://www.unlimitedallstars.org/2014uasrules.pdf
as I read them if your running multiple cylinders on a 2 cycle they cannot exceed 225 cc's total....If its a single cylinder then up too 255 cc's are allowed. If your running it in a true RWYB arena then this isn't relevant.
 

GeorgeHenry

New member
Just run it in the RWYB races.
 

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ttownwideglider

New member
Awsome looking kart George. Are those 125s or 100s, after seeing you street wheels probably 131s. Tell me about the chassis what manufactor is it? Iam thinking about rwyb anyway. Wouldnt mind having it UAS legal just in case I want to run in the local events we have here in okla. Panhandle Drifter is a pretty good ol boy and comes here a couple time a year. Also has some events that are in north Texas I could run. I guess mthose are run on individual jshafts and clutches. How hard are they to keep tuned to run togather. Is the rear cross pretty easily adjusted
 

ttownwideglider

New member
If the Jawa is making 65-70hp thats a lot of advantage over the other engines being run at the same weight 450s -60hp, wankels at 50hp, 250mx at 50hp. This truely seems like a real advantage and needs to be reevaluated. I know its a pretty new package, but 15-25hp advantage is a lot to overcome with set up. This will shortly become a Jawa spec class if adjustments arent made. Just like when the 131 Sudans came out and dominated. The evolution of engines is always going to be a tuff project to deal with in an unlimited class. UAS needs to add weight to the Jawas or recalculate the other engine combos allowed to run against it at the same weight to keep things equal in my opinion. I saw the GN race and that Jawa ran the 450 Honda down the straits like it was a Kt 100, unbelievable acceleration. Nothing like having a hot rod that handles really great down the straitaways (Quote Darrell Waltrip). What do the rest of you guys think about this equation?
 

pace24

Member
If the Jawa is making 65-70hp thats a lot of advantage over the other engines being run at the same weight 450s -60hp, wankels at 50hp, 250mx at 50hp. This truely seems like a real advantage and needs to be reevaluated. I know its a pretty new package, but 15-25hp advantage is a lot to overcome with set up. This will shortly become a Jawa spec class if adjustments arent made. Just like when the 131 Sudans came out and dominated. The evolution of engines is always going to be a tuff project to deal with in an unlimited class. UAS needs to add weight to the Jawas or recalculate the other engine combos allowed to run against it at the same weight to keep things equal in my opinion. I saw the GN race and that Jawa ran the 450 Honda down the straits like it was a Kt 100, unbelievable acceleration. Nothing like having a hot rod that handles really great down the straitaways (Quote Darrell Waltrip). What do the rest of you guys think about this equation?

Keep in mind you can only hook up so much HP and keep the tires on it the whole race, also the main packages like the BRC, the wankle, the 131, the 450, the jawa, and 250s, well it would take the whole package, the jawa alone wont win the race. The 4 rubber tires in the end will be the factor. Top UAS guys will be good drivers and have the pieces of the puzzle there, the rest is who win on preparation of the tires etc and finding the most speed in that area. The jawa I hear is pretty hard on the tires so you would have to be on your game so the tire game for the jawa might be the toughest part about that package. But we seen it can be done and consistently. And there is always room for improvement in any UAS package.

Mike
 

ttownwideglider

New member
In the GN race the Jawa didnt even come to the front until about the last third of the race. If the set up is close then a smart racer can save his stuff till the end. Knowing there is nothing on the track that can run with you on the top end makes this a lot easier. I understand setup is a large part of the equation but a huge hp and torque advantage is a great confidence factor to have in your pocket. Saying that even if your on your game on the set up, andthe guy with the Jawas even close who do you think has the best chance of winning. That is why the weights are all staggered to help even things up. Why does Nascar make the Toyotas run a restrictor plate at all the tracks and Chevy and Ford only do at Tala and Daytona, becuse toyota makes about 50 more hp the the others.
 

rainman

Site Supporter
The Jawa is a great engine package but power isn't everything you need in an engine. The Yow / Seay team has probably won and dominated UAS more than anyone else in the last couple of years. They just were not lucky in tbe GN. Chavous has been probably the fa fastest at most UAS races he has run and wasn't in any of the engine packages mentioned here.The only engines in disadvantage with the new engines used are the older open 2 cycles because even the Sudams have shown they are still competitive. Check how close lap times were in the GN, specially in Qualifying, and what engines were on top. This is even more evident in region races. I think rukes are fine. Maybe allow playing with injection for the wankels too. JMO
 

Swindle

Site Supporter
This sounds exactly like what was said about the Wankel. In reality no one engine is dominating the UAS. The rules are working pretty well.
 

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
I don't know much about that engine, but a friend has one and the way that thing pulls off the corners I'm wondering if you would need a jackshaft. Are you talking about the water cooled engine?
 

PD Power

New member
This sounds exactly like what was said about the Wankel. In reality no one engine is dominating the UAS. The rules are working pretty well.

It was the acutal physical dominanace of the Wankel which caused the emergence of the existing engine rules.
Now that the JAWA has showed it's hand, according to UAS usual way of doing business, it's time for some new, ever better rules.

Don't want to impede "innovation" ya' know.
The word "Innovation" according to the UAS Definition means "scour the planet earth, for a more powerful motorcycle engine, and bolt it on a kart".
 

ttownwideglider

New member
I agree first 131 stroker Sudan then the Wankle now the Jawa. As i said earlier watch the video of that Jawa running that 450 Honda down like a dirty dog on the straits at the GN race. They are rated at 68hp at 13-1 compression. And they can be up to 16-1 so thats probably closer to 75hp. That also have a new cnc ported head that will put it up close to 80hp at 16-1 compression. There is no way you can compensate for that much hp advantage with a just a better setup. I wish the Wankel would come out with a 60 or 70cc and up the anny. Those 500cc Jawas are a cool engine no tranny set up would be easy on a kart jackshaft pully on the crank and your ready to go. They alo are a laydown engine which get the cylinder head out of the way, no elbow beating on the notfunny bone. If the wankel comes out with a bigger combustion chamber it would be quite capable of running with any of the Jawas a 70cc should put out aroung 75-80hp. Shouldnt be that hard to up the ccs on the Wankel a larger chamber and a larger excentric with the same seals and a bigger cfm carb should do the trick. Just dont know how much larger the chamber cane be increased on the same block.The great thing about them is the low cost of rebuilds,100hrs of race time before rebuild and a short list of fairoly inexpensive parts does the job. The Jawas parts are fairly expensive and dont know how often they will require a rebuild. At 16-1 it wont be that long i promise you that. The cnc ported engine starts new for about 5,000$ plus top of the line carb is about 1,000$ so not that cheap to get into Their cheapest 500cc engine is about 3,500$ plus a 600$ carb. This doesnt include the exhaust which will probably heav to be custom fabed to fit the kart in a laydown configuration.
 

FOURTOGO

Member
If the Jawa is making 65-70hp thats a lot of advantage over the other engines being run at the same weight 450s -60hp, wankels at 50hp, 250mx at 50hp. This truely seems like a real advantage and needs to be reevaluated. I know its a pretty new package, but 15-25hp advantage is a lot to overcome with set up. This will shortly become a Jawa spec class if adjustments arent made. Just like when the 131 Sudans came out and dominated. The evolution of engines is always going to be a tuff project to deal with in an unlimited class. UAS needs to add weight to the Jawas or recalculate the other engine combos allowed to run against it at the same weight to keep things equal in my opinion. I saw the GN race and that Jawa ran the 450 Honda down the straits like it was a Kt 100, unbelievable acceleration. Nothing like having a hot rod that handles really great down the straitaways (Quote Darrell Waltrip). What do the rest of you guys think about this equation?
Jawa still has to carry 2ea chains Jackshaft clutch you got to get to turn too. And then price comes in for the Jawa<< not cheap. UAS is not a cheapo class to run. Twin any thing four stroke Twin 2smoke Moto-X Engines Rotary And a whole list of other engines are what UAS is using. Just as some racers will never change types of engine they run. Some racers are using two types of engine combo's per what type of track they are running are we going to regulate that also . And let's not forget the custom engines that being built for UAS racing . Moto-x top ends on custom cases . A Hot Rod 450 can make a bunch of TORQUE so can a Jawa or a Vtwin << this is the thing you are after TORQUE hp is nice to see but TORQUE is number on the DYNO you are after. Weight per cc handy cap is lever that is used and seems to work well. A once a year event is not a reason to, start making changes to the rules because one Kart ran well there.
 

GeorgeHenry

New member
Jawa is the beast Hands Down Powerful , tons of Torque and sweet sound of that exhaust system. They are not going away they will just get faster and faster. Just look up the YouTtube video on the GN at the Thunder 2013, Mullis was on rails it sounded and looked like a freight train.
 

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
13-1 and 16-1 are really high compression ratios, what kind of fuel do you run with that? I've never heard of anyone running that high a ratio with gas, not even with race gas.
 

GeorgeHenry

New member
Methanol is always use for Jawa 500cc 4 stroke air cooled either the 884 or 889 model laydown motor and the 889 puts out 80 hp . then with aftermarket race piston ( pic below) and bore out flat slider carb the numbers will be off the charts. adding F.I. and megaphone unpacked closer to 95 + hp
 

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