racing promotor
Moderator
I just came on with the Intent of asking how high the seat was, YES I agree with J.R especially with left that low, I took it like you said the push was there before BUT not near as bad.
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Inherent Push!
- Thread starter 1fasttiller
- Start date
racing promotor
Moderator
Yes I can tell that's good bit over 12" off the axle, Where is the bottom of the seat compared to chassis tubing ?
1fasttiller
Member
Just slightly above the tubing. Maybe 5/8-3/4” above.
1fasttiller
Member
Paul it mostly pushes into 1 and the. Pushes center off of 4.
racing promotor
Moderator
I would lower the back for sure and might wanta lower the whole seat bottom even with top of tubing.
1fasttiller
Member
I'd have to rule that out, the new tires were done by a local tire guy who absolutely knows what he is doing with MANY wins at this track, AND the same pushing issue was there with our previous set of tires which were even softer.
paulkish
old fart
If the below works:
Here's turn 3 and 4: https://www.google.com/maps/place/7...680eaa5bf3e02afa!8m2!3d29.262299!4d-82.176109
Here's turn 1 and 2: https://www.google.com/maps/place/7...680eaa5bf3e02afa!8m2!3d29.262299!4d-82.176109
paulkish
old fart
"mostly pushes into 1 and the. Pushes center off of 4."
If I have the right track in google earth the racing line doesn't clearly show on the pictures.
If I just think about push meaning I want the thing to turn and it doesn't. Looking at the pictures I don't see the place at either end of the track which relates to "mostly pushes into 1 and the. Pushes center off of 4.".
Per my looking at the pictures half way around 1 and 2 the turning at that end of the track tightens.
And also just per looking at the picture I can see at the other end of the track where it tightens right after getting deep into turn 3.
Might both places where i'm thinking the amount of turning needed to get around each end of the track tightens is where your push occurs?
If I have the right track in google earth the racing line doesn't clearly show on the pictures.
If I just think about push meaning I want the thing to turn and it doesn't. Looking at the pictures I don't see the place at either end of the track which relates to "mostly pushes into 1 and the. Pushes center off of 4.".
Per my looking at the pictures half way around 1 and 2 the turning at that end of the track tightens.
And also just per looking at the picture I can see at the other end of the track where it tightens right after getting deep into turn 3.
Might both places where i'm thinking the amount of turning needed to get around each end of the track tightens is where your push occurs?
paulkish
old fart
Quickly reading/scanning through what others have offered to help after seeing the picture of the kart and throwing my general theory/bs at it i'll offer what follows just as a general something to think about. If i'm out in left field on it I hope others will say so because I don't want to mess you up on it. ... just my bs which follows which ain't necessarily right anyway. ... 
There's only two things which are going to turn you out on the track. The first are the front tires and the second is your solid axle with staggered tires in the back. Those two and those two things only will turn you. period. Those two along with fine "tuning in" any needed unloading or reducing the use of the LR tire, to let you turn by freeing up the back end as needed, if needed.
It boils down to your LR tire in the turn is an 'anchor' or 'rudder' used to let your RR tire roll around it weather your slowing down, just rolling the corner at a constant speed or accelerating in the turn. You need just enough 'anchor' or 'rudder' from your LR tire.
After that probably wrong bs and original theory from me I think what others are offering are ways for you to get more "anchor" or "rudder" use out of your LR tire. If I'm seeing the points at each end of the track where the turn tightens correctly it will help you because it will allow you kart to 'sit down' better on the LR tire there increasing it's potential use as an 'anchor' or 'rudder'.
I sure hope I didn't just throw in a bunch of confusion and if I did I'm sorry butt this all is just IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ...
By the way I use to always only refer to the use of the LR in the turn as an "anchor". For those of you in the mid west I don't know the name of the older gentleman I talked to about it one day at a track maybe Eldora about my general how stagger works theory, but he added to my bs the thought of the LR being a "rudder". After kindly and I think reluctantly listening to me he said to me he thinks of the LR as his "rudder".
There's only two things which are going to turn you out on the track. The first are the front tires and the second is your solid axle with staggered tires in the back. Those two and those two things only will turn you. period. Those two along with fine "tuning in" any needed unloading or reducing the use of the LR tire, to let you turn by freeing up the back end as needed, if needed.
It boils down to your LR tire in the turn is an 'anchor' or 'rudder' used to let your RR tire roll around it weather your slowing down, just rolling the corner at a constant speed or accelerating in the turn. You need just enough 'anchor' or 'rudder' from your LR tire.
After that probably wrong bs and original theory from me I think what others are offering are ways for you to get more "anchor" or "rudder" use out of your LR tire. If I'm seeing the points at each end of the track where the turn tightens correctly it will help you because it will allow you kart to 'sit down' better on the LR tire there increasing it's potential use as an 'anchor' or 'rudder'.
I sure hope I didn't just throw in a bunch of confusion and if I did I'm sorry butt this all is just IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ...
By the way I use to always only refer to the use of the LR in the turn as an "anchor". For those of you in the mid west I don't know the name of the older gentleman I talked to about it one day at a track maybe Eldora about my general how stagger works theory, but he added to my bs the thought of the LR being a "rudder". After kindly and I think reluctantly listening to me he said to me he thinks of the LR as his "rudder".
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1fasttiller
Member
So I went home and measured his seat last night in relationship to the axle, it certainly is up there! But we did this on purpose in setting the kart up initially because he is of such small stature, I thought I needed it for weight transfer. I was always told with smaller drivers you needed the high VCG to get the kart to work correctly and to have some weight transfer. I'm going to drop the seat to about 12" off the axle and go re-scale the kart before our next race. Unfortunately we won't make it to the track again until 9/6 before I'll have some results. Thanks to you all!
Attachments
racing promotor
Moderator
Re-set the rear wheel spacing before you re-scale also as 1.5" out on the LR is way to far.
Kj26
Member
Gotcha I missed the part where it was pushing with the other set of tires also.
First race of this season we were really bad pushing with the new Pursuit, I knew the tires were good as I used the same ones on the Triton for the heats and that was fast. I ended up dropping the RF camber from -3 to -2.25 and we went from 13th up to 3rd in a hurry, think she coulda won it but with no yellows we ran outta time. Anyway I tune with camber more than anything else at the track.
1fasttiller
Member
Good info, thank you! So am I correct in that taking neg camber out of the RF will help with a push and give the kart more "bite" in the RF?
EX; we're at -2.75 now so If I go down to -2.25 it should help a push going IN to the corner, correct?
Kj26
Member
It should help as long as the tires are correct. We have one track here that I run -1.50 RF 0 LF camber at, been told I was crazy..... won 6 outta 9 races lol
While I understand the theory of -3 to -3.5 RF camber unloading the LR, it has never worked for us with either chassis on dirt. Works great on our asphalt Phenoms though.
While I understand the theory of -3 to -3.5 RF camber unloading the LR, it has never worked for us with either chassis on dirt. Works great on our asphalt Phenoms though.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
In my experience (50 years in and around karting) there are 2 fundamental rules; "Push" means one of 2 things, too much rear bite or not enough front bite. "Lose" means one of 2 things, too much front bite or not enough rear bite. If you're thinking "that's too simple", I can understand your thinking, but it's true nonetheless! Curing the problem is just as simple. The most difficult would be moving your seat. Forward/backward for push/loose. In that order. 2nd, for push, narrower front/wider rear, for loose, narrower rear/wider front.
There's always the possibility, and I wouldn't ignore it, that something is broken on your kart. I say that because you said this handling problem was a recent phenomena. How often do you scale the kart, do you have pre-problem/post problem scale readings? Just some ideas that popped into my head. Good luck on solving the problem.
There's always the possibility, and I wouldn't ignore it, that something is broken on your kart. I say that because you said this handling problem was a recent phenomena. How often do you scale the kart, do you have pre-problem/post problem scale readings? Just some ideas that popped into my head. Good luck on solving the problem.
1fasttiller
Member
Al- We scale the kart on average monthly. I don't own scales so we take it to a close friend. The numbers are usually spot on for this chassis and shows no signs of being bent or other problem. I really think all along it has been a seat position issue as I originally set it up for my really small son thinking I needed him as high up as I could get him to gain weight transfer. The seat height was at 16" off the axle and I just moved it down to 12" so that should have significant impact on the VCG. Sadly with this ridiculous Florida weather, we haven't been able to race due to all the rain. Hoping to get him back on the track this weekend or next.
1fasttiller
Member
Hi all! Just wanted to come back with a small update and to say thanks to you all especially JR Curtis who told me the seat height was the issue all along! We ran a small, local track Friday night with the new set up and for the first time ever the kart was LOOSE!! lol I had to bring the LR back in and play with air pressure but we got it to stick by feature time and it was wicked fast! This particular track is a very small one, 1/12 mile and we use a 12/65 gear. It really made it fun for him to drive, slightly loose and he loved it! Now on to our main track this Friday for our points racing, where he is still on top by 30 points.... crossing my fingers the setup works as well there!
1fasttiller
Member
Now can someone please explain to me how laying his seat back from 15" off the axle to 12" completely eliminated a push??? I realize it was a factor of VCG and weight transfer but I just can't make it work in my head!
He's laying back much more now, so naturally he is transferring less weight on corner entry, I assume before, he was setting up so much that he was transferring a bunch of weight over to the RR and that was causing the push?
He's laying back much more now, so naturally he is transferring less weight on corner entry, I assume before, he was setting up so much that he was transferring a bunch of weight over to the RR and that was causing the push?