Is tire softening done via removing compounds or converting them ?

paulkish

old fart
Is tire softening done via removing compounds or converting them ?
I think both occur but the actual benefit or change is the conversion of parts of the physical tire to a different more pliable compound. Prepping then becomes about what you change a part of the physical tire to rather then how soft it is. You would end up with softer but it would be because you actually change the tire compound not because you softened it.

I read on here about solvents to soften tires and I also read about replacing oils in tires.

Two questions. I asked both questions in the title of this thread.

I suspect one answer will be when you prep you are converting the tire compound into a more flexible compound.

The second is because a solvent is used to convert compound when the solvent is removed it carries with it compounds originally found in the tire and replacement oils spoke of become entwined with the softer converted tire compound.

Then there's detection of prepping when you are not allowed to prep. I now see three things needed to beat tech.
The first is you need to use a solvent which is not detectable or completely dissipated into the air leaving no trace.
The second is your replacement oil used during the conversion of tire compound must be an oil or compound normally found in a tire.
The third is when the compound of the tire is converted to something more flexible or softer, the new tire compound must not be volatile or detectable as being a new and different product then originally sold.

Are the first, second and third offerings true, possible and even correct?

I think they are per gut feel about them but as usual i'm not sure about it and I'm asking to learn.

thanks


paul

ps... the three above are making me think it would not be difficult to prep tires by changing their composition into something softer or more flexible which would be undetectable except via durometer. And probably the best test for cheated tires when prepping is not allowed would be to test tires with a durometer before they went onto the track. But again i'm no chemist only a backyard mechanic and i'm not stating anything as fact but i am asking to learn if i'm either on the right track, not on the right track or on a correct path to learning about what happens to the tire

ps again ... Thinking more on it after writing what I did the main difference between preps will be what new compound you changed a portion of the tire into. It then becomes not a matter how soft or flexible the new compound is but a combination of soft/flexible combined with how it wears. I see it also being a reason why in the past you might have better results taking a harder tire and softening it, instead of taking an originally softer tire and prepping or softening it less.

I'm now seeing the possibility of spraying on a solvent which will completely dissipate into the air leaving no trace, after it softens or changes the composition of the tire surface/tread. ... maybe????????

Sure hope i'm even a little bit correct on this.
 
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Woke up with another thought on my incorrect first post in this thread.

Each tire brand makes their tires using similar compounds. There's really only maybe two things your doing when you prep tires. The first is to change tire compounds be it tread, tread casing or sidewalls into something more elastic yet maybe more durable, but probably less durable. The second is during the process via so called oils being added or afterwords via wiping to internally lubricate the new compound. The lubrication probably needs the use of additional solvent to be accomplished. In total what your doing is picking a solvent able to carry needed lubrication into the tire compound for reasons of longevity. Your needs and the brands original composition determine how harsh a solvent you use. It's the solvent which determines how the original tire compound will be changed and what lubrication is added depends on it's ability and how the lubrication will mix with the solvent. This sets up the potential to either slowly alter and lubricate a portion of the tire or to have it done quickly. The resulting product because of changing composition will also differ depending on how the solvent and oils are applied and what solvent and oils are used.

I now see it totally possible to beat any common testing of the tire except for durometer and identifying the actual tire compound or new compound. Taking a sample and testing it to look for the application of volatile solvents and oils can be beat.

What cannot be beat is analyzing a sample of the tire to see how it compares to an original tire compound and the durometer also cannot be beat. Any racer dumb enough to apply a wipe of solvent and oil which will not dissipate beyond detection is who will be caught along with those who use pre race day preps and oils which change the compound but do not totally evaporate.

I probably already wrote enough last night and this morning to show how ignorant I am about preps so I'll stop for now. ... :)
 
I feel like writing a giving a short explanation of where this epiphany about preps came from. ... :)

I'm not totally well and wake up in the middle of the night needing to get back to sleep. I found when I was a little bit under the weather in addition to what's normally wrong that in the middle of the night or just before bed, I could drink a cup of coffee royal or irish coffee and quickly fall back to sleep. Long story short the fall asleep thing turned into hey dummy now you can't fall asleep again.

I looked for a solution(pun intended). What I thought i'd try is decaf coffee which has the caffeine removed. Me being me I naturally had to look at the process which makes coffee decaffeinated. Upon study it turned out solvents are used on the coffee bean to remove the caffeine. Ain't that enough to make anyone reading on here think about tire preps? ... :)

Here's a list of solvents used to decaffeinate coffee and it's a scary list.

"Organic chemical solvents – methylene chloride or ethyl acetate. This method is considered by some to produce very flavorful coffee. Methylene chloride is a chemical that is a commonly-used solvent. There is a small amount of formaldehyde present in coffee beans (naturally occurring) that is released during the high temperature roasting process. "

That list was enough to scare me away from decaf coffee but there was one more solvent to learn about. The other solvent commonly used is “super critical carbon dioxide”. I instantly had to go and find out about it.

I did but also have decided I don't want to get into drinking decaf coffee and naturally again that led me back to thinking about tire prep.

I'm not thinking a racer could make a pressurized tire rotisserie and use “super critical carbon dioxide” as the solvent which would completely leave the tire after softening and you would have a prepped tire which would pass any tech except a pre race duro and extensive laboratory testing which would be at a cost high enough that it would not be used.

Yeah, proly more dumb stuff but it was fun to write and I hope a fun and good maybe even fastual read?


thanks for reading



paul

... end of story for now anyway because this is all IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ... :)
 
Thats a lot. The problem I have in some of your thinking is in a typical solvent based softener once the solvent is evaporated it leaves the tire dry and hard, that is why you have the oils to replenish what damage has been done by the solvent. If you were to use a solvent that would completely evaporate beyond detection what would be left of the rubber when it is gone?

We can soften rubber without the need for solvents. When you swell the rubber it gets softer as well.
 
Question ? Why no explanation of what super critical carbon dioxide is .
My thinking is it liqiud carbon dioxide .
 
Thats a lot. The problem I have in some of your thinking is in a typical solvent based softener once the solvent is evaporated it leaves the tire dry and hard, that is why you have the oils to replenish what damage has been done by the solvent. If you were to use a solvent that would completely evaporate beyond detection what would be left of the rubber when it is gone?

We can soften rubber without the need for solvents. When you swell the rubber it gets softer as well.

Thank you.


quick question on the whole thing


Would the best and easiest test for prepping when it's not allowed be duro tires before they went on the track to race?

That way if anyone had a tire which was below the allowed duro reading they would not be allowed to race. Why wait until racers come off the track other then coming off you'd only have to maybe test the top three instead of all before going on the track.
 
Thank you.


quick question on the whole thing


Would the best and easiest test for prepping when it's not allowed be duro tires before they went on the track to race?

That way if anyone had a tire which was below the allowed duro reading they would not be allowed to race. Why wait until racers come off the track other then coming off you'd only have to maybe test the top three instead of all before going on the track.
Duro rules can easily still prep tires, quite a few preps on the market that just add bite with very little to no softening.
They wait until cars are coming off track because as the tire warms the reading of the duro is softer.
 
... :) ok.... :) do it before and after learning how much change can be expected? ... :)

and maybe sniff tires before and after?

If racers beat those two won't it be a sort of so what thing?

If racers wipe just before going out, wouldn't you be able to tell before they went on the track?

I guess tire sampling could be done before going on the track too. ??????????????????/
 
How come their not tire teched before racing?

I don't remember anyone ever asking on here or talking about it. It's always about what you do after the race.

Is it only because tires heat while on the track?

Maybe random testing might be done before they hit the track heating tires before testing with duro?

There's a lot of discussion on here about how tire temps are useless, might they be useful to detect prepping before and after the race?

Maybe a test after the race in the barn could be use tire warmers to raise tire temp to x degrees and then duro?

If tires are prepped and the prep is really in the tire, I don't know but might some prepped tires fail sniffer and/or duro after being washed?

Instead of sending out samples to be expensively tested, might testing tires failing duro/sniffer after washing with water and heating up to x degrees be used? If there sniffed for external wipe before going on the track and pass duro/sniffer after being water washed and heated after the race, ain't it a so what if they prepped in any way because the test showed the prepping didn't do anything good for them anyway?
 
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... :) ok.... :) do it before and after learning how much change can be expected? ... :)
Actually been done here by our local Racesaver officials and Hoosier tech.
My assumption was that the testing was inconclusive as some racers will abuse certain tires more than others -- I know that's certainly the case with several that were tested here. If a tire is worked harder, it will generate more temperature, therefor when it is checked with a duro after a race at the scale area, it will check softer than competitors.' The initial duro may have checked exactly the same. So, was the tire doped, or did that racer simply abuse his tires during the race?

Look, I make and sell prep, and I wish there were a fool-proof way to police it.
When I got my son into racing the 305 sprints, I thought we had gotten away from all the prepping (or at least for the most part) that we were accustomed to doing in karting. What I found is a lot of ex-karters who brought all their preps with them. I'm not surprised; I've sold preps to big car guys for a long time now, but I guess I had hoped that the "less serious" classes wouldn't be as affected. It would seem though, that it is more susceptible since hobby racers re-use their tires through several heat cycles rather than bolting on fresh rubber every time the car hits the track (like pro racers generally do.) Prepping is definitely cheaper than new rubber when it comes to big cars (see other thread that Ken started on here about comparing costs.) Most pro teams now have a dedicated tire guy on their roster -- and by no surprise, they are often karters or ex-karters who are familiar with the chem. game. Hmmm.


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If you don't sniff chemicals before going on the track and off the track and duro is ok before and after even when tires are heated, ain't it a so what if they did anything deal?

Seems to me that would be cost effective testing and good enough. The big thing I see that might be lacking today is from reading on here nobody checks out tires before racers hit the track.

Why is it not done when that would be when wipe would most easily be detected?

I read all the time on here about how you can prep and it goes away during the race not being detectable after the race. Ain't it kind of dumb then not to tech before the race if you want to control or eliminate prepping?
 
Have you ever been around a heated tire?
Not a tech man in the world who would want that job I am thinking.
Then again, there's plenty of karters who regularly torch crap into their tires and think nothing of it -- they'd probably volunteer for the job. ;)
 
Do you think either Sweet or Schatz at Charlotte for the points win race threw on tires for the race right off the Hoosier truck?

I'd bet each had at least 50 to select from and legally prepare which came right from the factory. Now did the factory do anything to the tires and select some to be sent to one team over the other, might be another question.
 
Heating tires for car racing question.

it's a hummm kind of question.... I see at big Super Late races where tire are sitting there on the car in plain view plastic wrapped. All the talk is about how they are not prepping and the wrap being there to keep the tires they spent legal hours on clean. hummmm... bingo! the plastic wrap has been applied as a tire warmer helping to hold the suns heat in the tire? maybe????

.... hummmm, I might whisper that thought into the right tech ear next summer. ?????????????

I'll bet there's a studied science about which plastic wrap works best holding heat in. Wouldn't it be the same as sun coming through the window heating a room in the winter? Hey Brian, ya can start selling special thermo plastic wrap which allows sun rays to pass through it but keeps heat from going out. ... :)
 
During the WKA prep debacle. They sniffed before going on track at the pump around .
2005 and they still have not found a good way to police it .
 
Heating tires for car racing question.

it's a hummm kind of question.... I see at big Super Late races where tire are sitting there on the car in plain view plastic wrapped. All the talk is about how they are not prepping and the wrap being there to keep the tires they spent legal hours on clean. hummmm... bingo! the plastic wrap has been applied as a tire warmer helping to hold the suns heat in the tire? maybe????

.... hummmm, I might whisper that thought into the right tech ear next summer. ?????????????

I'll bet there's a studied science about which plastic wrap works best holding heat in. Wouldn't it be the same as sun coming through the window heating a room in the winter? Hey Brian, ya can start selling special thermo plastic wrap which allows sun rays to pass through it but keeps heat from going out. ... :)
As a big car racer we wrap tires to keep dirt off, if you have a tire on the trailer and don't run it for a month all the dust adds up and starts to take oils from the tires. Yes some guys wrap them because they prep them as well. I prepped ours but as track tac has said you don't need to wrap with the stuff they are selling. I wrap the gokart tires so I can set it down and scale and what not without getting the tires dusty.
 
During the WKA prep debacle. They sniffed before going on track at the pump around .
2005 and they still have not found a good way to police it .
I was going to say this and it nearly killed kart racing off completely.
The more rules you make the more money it takes to win. The people with money will buy a truck load of tires to see what works whether you allow prepping or not. Then also people will get away with cheating no matter what. You cant send a sample of every tire every race every class. So then nobody wants to go at all. If a track thinks it has the solve for tires have a class that does it if it grows then good on that idea if it doesnt then thank god you didnt chase everyone away trying it. People use tire prepping for their excuse to get out when really they were ready to get out.i dont know what the answer is but the tire testing fails miserably and leads people to distrust the sanctioning powers of the track and or association. If I owned a track I would have a lite med heavy box predator class that had a 4 sets of tires rule in say like 12 races season just tossing numbers. Bar code them do what you want to them that way everyone only has 4 stickers a year that would change stuff up. Leave the more skilled classes alone adjust accordingly. Something like that.
 
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