paulkish
old fart
I had some thoughts on it and didn't want to hijack another thread so here goes.
I'll start out this is IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ...
And I'll start by making a statement where if you don't think the statement is right, then you don't need to read on listening to bull, which I think is supporting the up front statement.
Apex out any time there's a loss of rpm, it's because tires are fighting each other for control of direction.
____________________________
If your like me when someone says something like that, you immediately start thinking of conditions where it might not be true. After writing it I did the same. My first thought was well you could have a track where apex out it's up hill and it just takes some time apex out to get going. Then my thoughts went to, well yes and no it all depends on available hp too. That always happens with me because even though on here we are normally talking about racing conditions, where what your racing has more then enough available grip, but is down on available hp. But that's just me because we have raced stuff of both applications. And it especially came to mind today because yesterday I got to discuss it with someone who races UAS. When I asked do you ever have a problem with it being tight or loosing rpm apex out, the answer was never it's always only a matter of not spinning wheels apex out. Enough of that because my mind set for what follows is were on the edge of grip and able to put all the hp available to the track. And were so finely on the edge that any extra use of grip, eats hp and rpm.
Next the why of rpm loss because hp needed to accelerate apex out is eaten up by grip.
Back too the basics of my theory of how a staggered solid axle needs to be used in the ideal way. Yes it's boring to hear it again. But if it's correct which I believe it is, because of many knowledgeable racers have told me it is over the years, you won't hear about it anywhere else except from out of my fingers on here. The general reply I've gotten over the years about it is "I've never hear things explained that way before and it fits exactly into my understanding. Enough of that, nawww never enough of that for this old fart. ...
Anyway without throwing in some weird racing conditions, there is not going to be any loss of rpm apex out unless your available hp is exceeded by excessive use of available grip. In fact apex out you should already be on the gas and accelerating. Ideally you've already done all your slowing down, storing energy traveling up the bank of the track and have accomplished most of your turning before you got to the mythical apex how ever you define it in your mind. At that point you have already transitioned to accelerating and are exiting onto the straight needing to do less and less turning.
And naturally to understand how things are working or need to be working I have to go back to my usual basic theory. Up until the point of acceleration to cause your staggered solid axle roll around the turn while you were slowing, storing energy and turning, ideally you had enough weight on the LR that it acted like a brake or anchor, allowing the RR to roll around the anchored LR. You could only use it in that way because it is a smaller tire and the surface speed of the smaller LR tire, when pushed into the track acting as a pivot for the bigger RR tire and it's faster surface speed to roll around.
Now that that's setup and we have ended slowing down, we need to accelerate and still continue to be able to roll your staggered solid axle on to the straight, in the direction you want to go. And the definition of the direction you want to go is you need the axle to continue to turn and lessen the amount of turning on down the so called straight. That's accomplished by moving enough weight under acceleration to the bigger RR tire so it's faster surface speed, can now out accelerate the smaller LR tire and it's slower surface speed. Here's the picture to digest. Going into the apex your slowing down anyway and moving weight away from the left side and LR. And ideally you've retained enough weight on the LR to allow it to act as an anchor for the RR to roll around. You've needed next to nothing in the way of steering input. Very little steering input was needed, because you have your axle rolling in the direction you want to go and all the fronts are needed for is to carry weight sent to them because your decelerating and to get the front to go where the back already wants it to go.
The situation is you have a LR still loaded enough that the RR can roll around it and the slightest acceleration, instantly starts weight back to the rear and the reduction in turning instantly starts weight back to the left side. Here's the ideal for the acceleration which is to come. Weight which instantly is moved to the left and rear because acceleration has started and turning is being reduced, will be moved mainly to the LR, with just enough going to the RR, so the RR with it's faster surface speed will be able to out accelerate the LR as needed to head onto the straight in the direction you want to go.
That's the ideal and sorry I can't write things in a quick short manner.
OK, so we have little hp available for the acceleration, gobs of grip and lets get on to where the problem of loss of rpm comes from. I guess the easiest way to do it is to move on to something not ideal which causes a conflict between tires for control of direction apex out while accelerating, having limited hp to accelerate. The first is what if too much weight gets moved to the RR apex out.
Back to basic theory first. All tires have a natural way they want to roll and the way they want to roll, for all practical purposes, defines the direction straight. Anytime you need to make a tire roll in a direction other then what I defined as straight, input will be needed. When your slowing down you have stored up momentum to use to force them to go where you want to go. If your slowing down and already loading the axle as needed to make it roll in the direction you want to go, then your saving or maintaining maximum momentum. When accelerating if you don't have the axle loaded to go in the direction you want to go, you don't have stored up momentum to make them go where you want to go, you only have engine hp to do it. Well let's look at what happens if there's too much load moved to the RR. You only need to put enough weight to the RR so it will out accelerate the LR and make you go the direction you want. Now remember the RR even though your using it to out accelerate the LR, it still had a natural direction it wants to go which I defined as straight. Yes your using engine hp to force the RR tire to accelerate around the LR tire, but your only weighting it enough to make it out accelerate the LR. Now if you add more weight to it then is needed it's still going to want to roll in it's natural direction of straight, but because of the added weight it will take more effort to make it not roll straight. The only place to get the extra effort is from your accelerating engine. Put too much weight to the RR apex out and you can loose rpm's apex out, until you get to a point on the track where you are no longer turning as much and you have moved weight off of the RR. I started this thinking only about apex out or from the moment of acceleration out. How easy it is to over load the RR depends on where you start your acceleration and how much turning is being done when your acceleration starts. I think you will instantly relate to things hogging down if you start to accelerate while turning too much. Over loading the RR is not going to be so easy to perceive or tell when your apex off line is not as sharp a turn. You may not even notice any loss of anything. But weather you can tell or not if your putting more weight to the RR apex out or start of acceleration out, then is needed to cause the RR to out accelerate the LR, ... your eating hp and could be faster.
... got to stop and hope to continue on with this later by reading through it and editing it. posting it as is hoping it made some sense ... thanks for reading and any input at all is welcomed.
I'll start out this is IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ...
And I'll start by making a statement where if you don't think the statement is right, then you don't need to read on listening to bull, which I think is supporting the up front statement.
Apex out any time there's a loss of rpm, it's because tires are fighting each other for control of direction.
____________________________
If your like me when someone says something like that, you immediately start thinking of conditions where it might not be true. After writing it I did the same. My first thought was well you could have a track where apex out it's up hill and it just takes some time apex out to get going. Then my thoughts went to, well yes and no it all depends on available hp too. That always happens with me because even though on here we are normally talking about racing conditions, where what your racing has more then enough available grip, but is down on available hp. But that's just me because we have raced stuff of both applications. And it especially came to mind today because yesterday I got to discuss it with someone who races UAS. When I asked do you ever have a problem with it being tight or loosing rpm apex out, the answer was never it's always only a matter of not spinning wheels apex out. Enough of that because my mind set for what follows is were on the edge of grip and able to put all the hp available to the track. And were so finely on the edge that any extra use of grip, eats hp and rpm.
Next the why of rpm loss because hp needed to accelerate apex out is eaten up by grip.
Back too the basics of my theory of how a staggered solid axle needs to be used in the ideal way. Yes it's boring to hear it again. But if it's correct which I believe it is, because of many knowledgeable racers have told me it is over the years, you won't hear about it anywhere else except from out of my fingers on here. The general reply I've gotten over the years about it is "I've never hear things explained that way before and it fits exactly into my understanding. Enough of that, nawww never enough of that for this old fart. ...
Anyway without throwing in some weird racing conditions, there is not going to be any loss of rpm apex out unless your available hp is exceeded by excessive use of available grip. In fact apex out you should already be on the gas and accelerating. Ideally you've already done all your slowing down, storing energy traveling up the bank of the track and have accomplished most of your turning before you got to the mythical apex how ever you define it in your mind. At that point you have already transitioned to accelerating and are exiting onto the straight needing to do less and less turning.
And naturally to understand how things are working or need to be working I have to go back to my usual basic theory. Up until the point of acceleration to cause your staggered solid axle roll around the turn while you were slowing, storing energy and turning, ideally you had enough weight on the LR that it acted like a brake or anchor, allowing the RR to roll around the anchored LR. You could only use it in that way because it is a smaller tire and the surface speed of the smaller LR tire, when pushed into the track acting as a pivot for the bigger RR tire and it's faster surface speed to roll around.
Now that that's setup and we have ended slowing down, we need to accelerate and still continue to be able to roll your staggered solid axle on to the straight, in the direction you want to go. And the definition of the direction you want to go is you need the axle to continue to turn and lessen the amount of turning on down the so called straight. That's accomplished by moving enough weight under acceleration to the bigger RR tire so it's faster surface speed, can now out accelerate the smaller LR tire and it's slower surface speed. Here's the picture to digest. Going into the apex your slowing down anyway and moving weight away from the left side and LR. And ideally you've retained enough weight on the LR to allow it to act as an anchor for the RR to roll around. You've needed next to nothing in the way of steering input. Very little steering input was needed, because you have your axle rolling in the direction you want to go and all the fronts are needed for is to carry weight sent to them because your decelerating and to get the front to go where the back already wants it to go.
The situation is you have a LR still loaded enough that the RR can roll around it and the slightest acceleration, instantly starts weight back to the rear and the reduction in turning instantly starts weight back to the left side. Here's the ideal for the acceleration which is to come. Weight which instantly is moved to the left and rear because acceleration has started and turning is being reduced, will be moved mainly to the LR, with just enough going to the RR, so the RR with it's faster surface speed will be able to out accelerate the LR as needed to head onto the straight in the direction you want to go.
That's the ideal and sorry I can't write things in a quick short manner.
OK, so we have little hp available for the acceleration, gobs of grip and lets get on to where the problem of loss of rpm comes from. I guess the easiest way to do it is to move on to something not ideal which causes a conflict between tires for control of direction apex out while accelerating, having limited hp to accelerate. The first is what if too much weight gets moved to the RR apex out.
Back to basic theory first. All tires have a natural way they want to roll and the way they want to roll, for all practical purposes, defines the direction straight. Anytime you need to make a tire roll in a direction other then what I defined as straight, input will be needed. When your slowing down you have stored up momentum to use to force them to go where you want to go. If your slowing down and already loading the axle as needed to make it roll in the direction you want to go, then your saving or maintaining maximum momentum. When accelerating if you don't have the axle loaded to go in the direction you want to go, you don't have stored up momentum to make them go where you want to go, you only have engine hp to do it. Well let's look at what happens if there's too much load moved to the RR. You only need to put enough weight to the RR so it will out accelerate the LR and make you go the direction you want. Now remember the RR even though your using it to out accelerate the LR, it still had a natural direction it wants to go which I defined as straight. Yes your using engine hp to force the RR tire to accelerate around the LR tire, but your only weighting it enough to make it out accelerate the LR. Now if you add more weight to it then is needed it's still going to want to roll in it's natural direction of straight, but because of the added weight it will take more effort to make it not roll straight. The only place to get the extra effort is from your accelerating engine. Put too much weight to the RR apex out and you can loose rpm's apex out, until you get to a point on the track where you are no longer turning as much and you have moved weight off of the RR. I started this thinking only about apex out or from the moment of acceleration out. How easy it is to over load the RR depends on where you start your acceleration and how much turning is being done when your acceleration starts. I think you will instantly relate to things hogging down if you start to accelerate while turning too much. Over loading the RR is not going to be so easy to perceive or tell when your apex off line is not as sharp a turn. You may not even notice any loss of anything. But weather you can tell or not if your putting more weight to the RR apex out or start of acceleration out, then is needed to cause the RR to out accelerate the LR, ... your eating hp and could be faster.
... got to stop and hope to continue on with this later by reading through it and editing it. posting it as is hoping it made some sense ... thanks for reading and any input at all is welcomed.
