Are new chassis really faster than its previous model, don't you think after a while and bending tubes so many ways that's it for speed and ease of setup. Don't you think somewhere out there is or was the most practical chassis design. or is it just tires we like to put on our new chassis thinking our investment was worth while for the need for more speed. like my granddad would say " you better learn to like it boy, cause your money spent"
Just wondering
- Thread starter rupp76
- Start date
jaymancds
Member
Its probably some sort of logical confirmation bias we all have. In golf, I shoot 100. I go spend $650+ on a set of irons, and then shoot 99, well thats an improvement I can attribute to the clubs.
Same idea here. Lets say you run 3rd or 4th every week. You go spend $5000 getting a new best of the best chassis. Your first race with it you win. You tell yourself its all the chassis, but you left out the details that the 3 guys that you normally compete with up front were all gone that week.
Does it help, probably, the chassis wont have the wear and tear, bending, flexing, age and corrosion that a slightly older chassis has. And you cant necessarily skip the possible material upgrades/changes. I still say its mostly in our heads unless you are one of the few that are elite.
Same idea here. Lets say you run 3rd or 4th every week. You go spend $5000 getting a new best of the best chassis. Your first race with it you win. You tell yourself its all the chassis, but you left out the details that the 3 guys that you normally compete with up front were all gone that week.
Does it help, probably, the chassis wont have the wear and tear, bending, flexing, age and corrosion that a slightly older chassis has. And you cant necessarily skip the possible material upgrades/changes. I still say its mostly in our heads unless you are one of the few that are elite.
GeneticTireWorks
Member
age is always a factor to me, example 300000 miles on a set of coilovers isn't going to feel like the first 10000. but Imo a triton, impulse, and others around year 2012-2014 would still be competitive on the track today if they aren't abused and have 500000 laps on them. jmo
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
"Cycle life", it's a standard rating I think. How many times a particular material can take a particular stress and not fail.
Most karts, those built in the USA, use 4130 condition N Chrome Molly. I'm told, most karts made in Europe use 1018 mild steel, seamless and drawn over mandrel (DOM) the 2 materials have the same 40,000 psi tensile strength. Think that's what it's called. But if I'm not mistaken, Chrome Molly has a much longer cycle life. Cycles till failure. I'm not very versed in the terms I'm using, maybe Pete Mueller will step in with some real numbers. Suffice it to say that; Chrome Molly can bend farther (before taking a set) and more often than DOM mild steel, even though they have the same (I think it's called tensile strength) rating. It's my observation that; DOM frames are (and here again I speak as a layman) less "Springy" than Chrome Molly.
Most karts, those built in the USA, use 4130 condition N Chrome Molly. I'm told, most karts made in Europe use 1018 mild steel, seamless and drawn over mandrel (DOM) the 2 materials have the same 40,000 psi tensile strength. Think that's what it's called. But if I'm not mistaken, Chrome Molly has a much longer cycle life. Cycles till failure. I'm not very versed in the terms I'm using, maybe Pete Mueller will step in with some real numbers. Suffice it to say that; Chrome Molly can bend farther (before taking a set) and more often than DOM mild steel, even though they have the same (I think it's called tensile strength) rating. It's my observation that; DOM frames are (and here again I speak as a layman) less "Springy" than Chrome Molly.
Pete_Muller
Moderator
I don't know of any European sprint kart manufacturers that use mild steel for production. They use something relatively close to our US spec 4130. I would doubt that any LTO manufacturer is using anything other than 4130 or equivalent. There are times when European manufacturers have built "special" chassis for events like the World Championships out of mild steel. They are typically "one race specials", and work very well for a short period of time. I don't know if that practice still exists. I have driven a number of mild steel sprint chassis though, and they definitely have "something" that is magic, but they are "one hit wonders"... they do NOT last long under hard use.
4130 is "about" 50% stronger than mild steel in both yield and tensile compared to 1018 mild steel (very significant). "Yield strength" meaning how much force it takes to permanently bend something (e.g. did someone put you into the wall and bend your kart). "Tensile strength" meaning how much force it takes to actually break the material "in tension" (testing machines actually grab a sample piece of material on each end and tear it apart to obtain this value).
In karting, we concern ourselves much more with how a chassis "feels". Is it lively, does it feel dead or have a "muted response" to the track, does it stay flat and aligned even after a season of racing, does it respond well to adjustments, etc. These tendencies are much more difficult to define mathematically or by normal testing procedures, because they largely happen on a molecular level. Go with your gut feeling -- that's a really good tool !!
And yes: chassis can and do get "tired" after a while, and it does have to do with number of cycles of bending... that happens quite quickly with a mild steel chassis, and takes much longer with a chrome moly chassis. My gut feeling is that what actually starts to "get tired" first on a chrome moly chassis are all the areas around the welds, due to the changes in the heat effected zone from welding.
PM
4130 is "about" 50% stronger than mild steel in both yield and tensile compared to 1018 mild steel (very significant). "Yield strength" meaning how much force it takes to permanently bend something (e.g. did someone put you into the wall and bend your kart). "Tensile strength" meaning how much force it takes to actually break the material "in tension" (testing machines actually grab a sample piece of material on each end and tear it apart to obtain this value).
In karting, we concern ourselves much more with how a chassis "feels". Is it lively, does it feel dead or have a "muted response" to the track, does it stay flat and aligned even after a season of racing, does it respond well to adjustments, etc. These tendencies are much more difficult to define mathematically or by normal testing procedures, because they largely happen on a molecular level. Go with your gut feeling -- that's a really good tool !!
And yes: chassis can and do get "tired" after a while, and it does have to do with number of cycles of bending... that happens quite quickly with a mild steel chassis, and takes much longer with a chrome moly chassis. My gut feeling is that what actually starts to "get tired" first on a chrome moly chassis are all the areas around the welds, due to the changes in the heat effected zone from welding.
PM
jaymancds
Member
Just want to say thanks for the explanation. Interesting stuff for sure.
Pete_Muller
Moderator
Somewhere... I have a couple of research papers I found years ago on how the chemical makeup of different metals (steels) can effect the internal damping within the material. If I can find 'em, I'll PDF them and will post them here for everyone's... uhh.. enjoyment.
PM