Lapped karts

People generally don’t run a different line in the corner. Everyone runs the bottom. The straight is different. When I first started I would either go high and point low in or out of the corner or go low and point high. I would just burp the throttle once real quick to let them pass and then back to throttle. Either in or out but never in the corner as that is trouble. If someone is running a high line they need to stay there if low same thing but in a corner unless the kart is going to hold a higher line everyone is on the bottom. If there are two lines through a corner then passes become much easier. The biggest concern is in the corner. One line, nobody is going into the marbles. Now back to the line thing. Most are always running the same line so there is usually just one. So if the leader catches you, you are racing to stay on the lead lap and not a lapped kart yet, you don’t become a lapped kart until the leader passes you, so which rule applies in that scenario?
I'm still wondering about how many lines a track has. I definitely have the preferred line figured out I believe.
You definitely make a good point about it actually being lapped yet, until the leader over takes you, so maybe that's when you go to the actually flag rule, will depend on if the flag man uses it or not on one going to be lapped kart?
 
It’s like breaking the law and then trying to change the meaning of what it says in black and white through interpretation. The judge really don’t care how you interpret it because this is what it says. If it was meant to be interpreted differently (mean something different than what it says) it would have been written differently. Just because someone does something one way doesn’t mean it is correct or right. That’s the great thing about written anything. It tells you what to do, what you can’t do etc. with words that have a meaning or definition so it can be used as a basis for right, wrong etc. It doesn’t leave it to interpretation because interpretation is based upon opinion, feelings etc. rather than a known meaning and/or fact. So people can’t be tossed for engine rules either due to interpretation of what is written or is that something they have always abided by, what it actually says is right but other rules we are allowed to interpret when it fits what we have always done against the written words making us hypocritical to being followers of the rules? So you get arrested and while in the process of getting arrested the officer says maintain your position does that mean move? Standing at attention don’t you maintain your position or does that mean move? Coming to take the green flag we are required to maintain position in the lineup can we move up? During a firefight you are told by your squad leader to maintain position do you move or get shot? Maintain position of the nail as you strike it with the hammer, so in other words move it around and hope for the best? Getting passed on the road do you maintain position or maintain position (the one where you move)? Who would we consult for that to get a definitive definition on which maintain position to use and the one that would lead to the best outcome for both parties involved? I bet the DOT would look at you in horror and wonder if you really need a license. The only place I have ever seen maintain position means move is right here in this argument because “that’s the way they have always done it” even though the flagman and track workers don’t understand the rules under which they are trying to force others to abide by. That always loses a court case. If this was presented to a judge would he say yes maintain position means move or would he laugh you right out of the courtroom? You know and I know exactly what would happen whether you want to admit it or not. So in other words the people enforcing the rules don’t even understand them, haven’t read them, don’t understand written English etc.?Maybe a dictionary needs to be provided with the rules or consulted when making them because now the rules are a joke and open to interpretation based on someone’s opinion rather than written words with clear definitions and meanings available to disseminate them. Yet again questions are getting dodged and not answered because? The lapped kart will point which side to pass them on. Why do we keep missing this too? Or do we only follow one rule out of the several just because? Oh just skip them! So if I was to take a poll how many people would say maintain position means don’t move versus move and get it correct? If that was the only question on a test how many would fail it?
 
That's what I'm trying to tell you, the head flagman ( race director ) is the Judge and the only one that counts in the end, I've flagged ( race directed ) hundreds of races, probably safe to say in the last 20 yrs attended more kart races than most anyone, heard the drivers meetings witnessed the flag being used, witnessed the hand signals being given and in EVERY case when used, they mean MOVE UP give way the leaders are coming, NEVER once heard it explained as you point out, as the flagman your ( the racers safety ) is my biggest concern and duty, explaining in detail in the drivers meeting, including exactly how to move up, using the flag and hand signals ahead of time and having the karts ready to be lapped move up is the safest bet in the end.
 
It’s like breaking the law and then trying to change the meaning of what it says in black and white through interpretation. The judge really don’t care how you interpret it because this is what it says. If it was meant to be interpreted differently (mean something different than what it says) it would have been written differently. Just because someone does something one way doesn’t mean it is correct or right. That’s the great thing about written anything. It tells you what to do, what you can’t do etc. with words that have a meaning or definition so it can be used as a basis for right, wrong etc. It doesn’t leave it to interpretation because interpretation is based upon opinion, feelings etc. rather than a known meaning and/or fact. So people can’t be tossed for engine rules either due to interpretation of what is written or is that something they have always abided by, what it actually says is right but other rules we are allowed to interpret when it fits what we have always done against the written words making us hypocritical to being followers of the rules? So you get arrested and while in the process of getting arrested the officer says maintain your position does that mean move? Standing at attention don’t you maintain your position or does that mean move? Coming to take the green flag we are required to maintain position in the lineup can we move up? During a firefight you are told by your squad leader to maintain position do you move or get shot? Maintain position of the nail as you strike it with the hammer, so in other words move it around and hope for the best? Getting passed on the road do you maintain position or maintain position (the one where you move)? Who would we consult for that to get a definitive definition on which maintain position to use and the one that would lead to the best outcome for both parties involved? I bet the DOT would look at you in horror and wonder if you really need a license. The only place I have ever seen maintain position means move is right here in this argument because “that’s the way they have always done it” even though the flagman and track workers don’t understand the rules under which they are trying to force others to abide by. That always loses a court case. If this was presented to a judge would he say yes maintain position means move or would he laugh you right out of the courtroom? You know and I know exactly what would happen whether you want to admit it or not. So in other words the people enforcing the rules don’t even understand them, haven’t read them, don’t understand written English etc.?Maybe a dictionary needs to be provided with the rules or consulted when making them because now the rules are a joke and open to interpretation based on someone’s opinion rather than written words with clear definitions and meanings available to disseminate them. Yet again questions are getting dodged and not answered because? The lapped kart will point which side to pass them on. Why do we keep missing this too? Or do we only follow one rule out of the several just because? Oh just skip them! So if I was to take a poll how many people would say maintain position means don’t move versus move and get it correct? If that was the only question on a test how many would fail it?
Just one quick thing, if you do make a poll also make one about how many racing lines a track can have, Im still stuck on this! Ive always heard it like"man he passed him on the low side in he straight! so if someone was on the high straight wouldn't that follow around thru the turn as high side? And its just that the preferred line is high in the straight and cut her low going into and let her come back up in the straight?
 
Honestly I have never seen any lines on a Dirt Track ...........:)
We did lose a race because of a yellow flag though . ;)
For me its stay out the way and don't hold them up with stupid blocking moves .
 
No he isn’t a judge or he would understand written language and definitions of words put together that have clearly defined meanings. Thank goodness for that I couldn’t imagine having a case in front of a judge that couldn't comprehend at a fifth grade level. So in other words they don’t know or understand the rules and are winging it because no matter what, the meaning of the wording doesn’t have anything to do with moving away from what you are doing or position you are holding, quite the opposite actually. I understand what you are saying but did you ever think that maybe the monkey see monkey do thing was wrong no matter how many follow it or who “thinks” it is correct? I mean look at how many things have went on in this country or world that later on people are like oh wow that was a bad idea, concept etc even though a large amount of people followed it. No matter what at the end of the day with the rules as they are stated the flagman/track workers are doing their job wrong. There is no way around that no matter your feelings, thoughts, opinions, how right you want to be or the way we always did it because it is and can still be wrong. How do you twist 3 or so rules into one with something that isn’t even in the rules? How does the driver pointing to which side they want the faster kart to pass on equal move up the track for the driver which the rules command to point where the faster kart should pass? Why do they continuously put these rules in the book if that isn’t what they do or abide by? Just for you know what and giggles? So moving up in a corner with one line and marbles is safe? I have witnessed plenty of accidents due to marbles or even missing a mark by just a few inches and getting too high. Beings that we are adults I am not intentionally trying to come across as an a** either Ken. You have helped me and I respect you and your advice, however no matter how we try to spin it the rules state one thing and the track workers do another.
 
Just one quick thing, if you do make a poll also make one about how many racing lines a track can have, Im still stuck on this! Ive always heard it like"man he passed him on the low side in he straight! so if someone was on the high straight wouldn't that follow around thru the turn as high side? And its just that the preferred line is high in the straight and cut her low going into and let her come back up in the straight?
We are talking about the line that the driver being overtaken is running. Bottom through the corners sweeping to the outside of the track down the straightaways or coming out low on the straightaways, the top all the way around etc. So with what you said and there are that many lines around the track why the need to move if you can run anywhere on the track? What ever line they are running is the one they need to run to “maintain position”.
 
WKA race Massena , Iowa our first foray into series racing .
We were off pace and knew we would likely get caught around lap 10-12 .
I told the driver if they catch you stay low and out of the way .
The lay over flag comes out he's down so low on the straight they flew by and hes so far off the line he can't make the turn spins and brings out the yellow .
I told him what i wanted him too do , he did , i gave the wrong instructions.
 
No he isn’t a judge or he would understand written language and definitions of words put together that have clearly defined meanings. Thank goodness for that I couldn’t imagine having a case in front of a judge that couldn't comprehend at a fifth grade level. So in other words they don’t know or understand the rules and are winging it because no matter what, the meaning of the wording doesn’t have anything to do with moving away from what you are doing or position you are holding, quite the opposite actually. I understand what you are saying but did you ever think that maybe the monkey see monkey do thing was wrong no matter how many follow it or who “thinks” it is correct? I mean look at how many things have went on in this country or world that later on people are like oh wow that was a bad idea, concept etc even though a large amount of people followed it. No matter what at the end of the day with the rules as they are stated the flagman/track workers are doing their job wrong. There is no way around that no matter your feelings, thoughts, opinions, how right you want to be or the way we always did it because it is and can still be wrong. How do you twist 3 or so rules into one with something that isn’t even in the rules? How does the driver pointing to which side they want the faster kart to pass on equal move up the track for the driver which the rules command to point where the faster kart should pass? Why do they continuously put these rules in the book if that isn’t what they do or abide by? Just for you know what and giggles? So moving up in a corner with one line and marbles is safe? I have witnessed plenty of accidents due to marbles or even missing a mark by just a few inches and getting too high. Beings that we are adults I am not intentionally trying to come across as an a** either Ken. You have helped me and I respect you and your advice, however no matter how we try to spin it the rules state one thing and the track workers do another.
Not trying to come off as an A** either, So if it's unsafe for a slower kart to move up because he'll get in the marbles and spin, WHY is it OK for the leaders to have to pass the slower karts by moving up into the marbles at a higher rate of speed, So when the leaders catch these slower karts there to just follow them to the checkered because they ( the slower karts ) feel the need to keep racing, that would be a high speed parade, NOT a race !!
 
WKA race Massena , Iowa our first foray into series racing .
We were off pace and knew we would likely get caught around lap 10-12 .
I told the driver if they catch you stay low and out of the way .
The lay over flag comes out he's down so low on the straight they flew by and hes so far off the line he can't make the turn spins and brings out the yellow .
I told him what i wanted him too do , he did , i gave the wrong instructions.
Tony I had a bad flip there off the backstretch and down the hill in 2007 because of an incident in the corner. Great track though and always fast. He is lucky he got slowed in time and didn’t go off at the west end that was a rough ride also from what I seen a few times. Had a bad encounter with marbles last year and barrel rolled it at Kamrar. Have video of that one wish I had the 07 one. He could have ran his line through the corner pointed them low or high or even going in and the outcome would have been different most likely. He could have taken out several karts spinning also.
 
Not trying to come off as an A** either, So if it's unsafe for a slower kart to move up because he'll get in the marbles and spin, WHY is it OK for the leaders to have to pass the slower karts by moving up into the marbles at a higher rate of speed, So when the leaders catch these slower karts there to just follow them to the checkered because they ( the slower karts ) feel the need to keep racing, that would be a high speed parade, NOT a race !!
Ken as I have said the whole time there is much more opportunity to pass than in a corner. I see hardly any passing done in the corners as it is. I always set them up in or out of the corner but I always try to pass coming out as it’s safer for all involved and the line is much wider than the corner but sometimes I pass going in. I am that much faster I can easily pull them down the straight and be back into my line for the corner. If they hold the line they have ran the previous few laps I have seen where they run and can prepare for the pass. Going into a corner if I burp the throttle a bit sooner than usual it allows me to pass coming out without running someone over thru the corner and I still have the speed to pass because I can get back to the gas sooner. I am always looking ahead of me rather than off the bumper but I look where I want the kart to go like throwing a ball. I see what is going to happen in the next 5 seconds rather than in the next millisecond. Back to the rules and the driver will point which side to pass on. Nobody has to go into the marbles. Point, burp the throttle and get back on it. According to the rules 10.6.3.1: The ‘right of line’ is the ability of a driver to have the right to utilize their preferred line entering, through the apex, and exiting a corner. Notice it says nothing about leader, faster driver, lapped driver etc. Why would the rule makers be so concerned to specify a certain part of the track rather than right of line the whole track? It also lays out who gets the line based on where the karts are in relation to each other. I ran at a track back in 05,06 that the preferred line was the top side all the way around the track. Not gonna lie that seemed a bit scary the first few corners because the extra track space is not there. This was nice as the marbles were non existent and you could go low to pass. Even with the slow karts off the track it many times is a high speed parade anyways.
 
Yes we saw a few go off the west end . All the hot shots came up after winfeild rained out to give the no prep a try .
Armco barrier on the high side of the front strech was a little intimidating as well .
 
Yes we saw a few go off the west end . All the hot shots came up after winfeild rained out to give the no prep a try .
Armco barrier on the high side of the front strech was a little intimidating as well .
Yeah that wall didn’t move! I had both right sides up on that once and somehow didn’t go over.
 
We are talking about the line that the driver being overtaken is running. Bottom through the corners sweeping to the outside of the track down the straightaways or coming out low on the straightaways, the top all the way around etc. So with what you said and there are that many lines around the track why the need to move if you can run anywhere on the track? What ever line they are running is the one they need to run to “maintain position”.
exactly, if the over taken kart is running the high line in the straight when he receives the flag i would think that means maintain his position of the high line until he gets passed, not to maintain preferred line, but maybe in still just thinking about it the wrong way.
 
Regardless of what the rules say, or how they are interpreted. I think it's safe to say that tracks need to cover this during the drivers meeting. Of the 3 tracks I ran at last year, none of them ever mentioned lapped karts, or anything about flags(other than claiming they'll whip out the black flag but never do).
 
Regardless of what the rules say, or how they are interpreted. I think it's safe to say that tracks need to cover this during the drivers meeting. Of the 3 tracks I ran at last year, none of them ever mentioned lapped karts, or anything about flags(other than claiming they'll whip out the black flag but never do).
Best statement about it and lapped karts i've read.

You and everyone else on the track are also racing to win or should be.
If you need to do something you will get away with even though it may not be the courteous thing to do, you do it.
Nice guys finish last.
The only thing which keeps you racing courtesy as a gentleman would with others is fear of reprisal.
If the track does not put fear of reprisal into all racers via the black flag, there is no fear of reprisal on the track only a pecking order.
 
exactly, if the over taken kart is running the high line in the straight when he receives the flag i would think that means maintain his position of the high line until he gets passed, not to maintain preferred line, but maybe in still just thinking about it the wrong way.
This makes the most sense to me. someone realizing they're about to get lapped and suddenly moving to a high or low line is just asking for a wreck. From other motorsports, its been engrained into me to be predictable. cutting into, across, or out of the line while you're way off pace, all while having no clue what the guy behind you is setting up...sounds like a disaster waiting to me. IMO, i would never black flag the person being lapped unless they are dangerously slow. Afterall they paid the same price to be on track, but as its been said previously here, if you're being lapped your race is over, feel free to stay on track, but stay out of the way the best you can. Just look at almost any professional motorsport, aside from endurance racing. If someone is about to be lapped, flags come out letting that person know, and they get out of the way. In karting, racing on very small tracks with really only 1 good groove, it seems even more important to get out of the way.
 
This is two years old but i find this to be a serious matter, per WKA rule book it states blue flag is for make room (which is vague). With a 1 second google search almost all US sanctioned racing series the blue flag means hold your line and since karting is usually 99% the starting point of everyones career shouldn't we try to make those very important saftey flags as fluid as we can acrossed all forms of motorsports. Now as for the move up and out of the way, that is absolutely the most confusing thing i have ever heard. You do not want slow karts moving up and fast karts moving down generally the slow kart is very new not just missing their setup. I hear the officials saying this is "what i would do" but having a sanctioning body creating rules for saftey, needs to have baseline as much as it can at every event that uses WKA rules. Again this is racing and it seems like alot of what was discussed was allowing people to drive as straight and as fast as they can all while single file, vs creating multigrove racetracks that teach drivers how to race in traffic and honestly provide a good race to watch which does seem completely lost these days. But idk anything just my 2 cents of nonsense about a 2 year old thread 🤣
 
Anybody who can post a picture of a kart track with a racing groove wider than 8 feet would astound me. It just doesn't happen. And starting the fastest guy on the pole (and they rarely actually pass anyone) is the reason you cannot sell tickets to spectators. They might as well give the purse money out after time trials and let everyone get home at a decent hour.
 
Someone just find racing?
The lay over flag is just that, it doesn't state to go high or low, it's always been leaders are coming get out of the way.

So penalize guys who have put the work in to be fast.
Putting the fast guys behind slow guys leads to more wrecks.
Blockers get punted, plain and simple.
Can't live with that, work harder or find another hobby
 
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