Red rocket
New member
My sons pretty fast but the kart gets tight coming out of the corner, the longer the run the worst it gets. Would moving lead help or adding rear stagger, what can I do to get better coming out?
Little help
- Thread starter Red rocket
- Start date
Wynn Racing
Member
Try increasing rf negative camber.
racing promotor
Moderator
Post more info on your current set--up, %ages, cambers and staggers and some track info
Charliemac115
New member
The tires could be a little soft or it could use a little more left to help take some load off the rr. If the setup or tires are too aggressive it will give up early.
Good luck and hope I could help
Good luck and hope I could help
I'm with this guy, check your nose weight too. All depends on how tight is tight coming off.
nogoats
Member
You might find some information here: http://nogoats.net/no-goats-setup-sheets/
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
It gets tighter as youre longer into the run, if the set up is correct, because of tires.
paulkish
old fart
Would you define what you mean by "tight"?
For some reading on here your saying it's pushing coming off the corner and others may think it's bound up coming off with no speed.
Either one could get worse as the race goes on.
___________________
I think in general on here we think about:
Push as in it won't turn and you have to turn the wheel to the left over steering it.
Tight as in it just doesn't want to go because tires are fighting with each other for control of direction. The thing feels great and handles fine, it's just not fast.
Loose as in the back end wants to slide out and you have to steer to the right or under steer it to catch the front up with the back.
Free as in it just rolls very well and free is opposite of tight.
4 wheel drift as in the whole thing just wants to slide sideways to the outside of the track.
>>> Please if I didn't explain the terms OK, will you post corrections to them. I ain't never sure about anything. thanks
And if I did I'd appreciate a yeah, those definitions are OK. ...
paulkish
old fart
Assuming the problem is it quits wanting to turn left as well coming off the corner, I'd like to apply my logic about why it may be away from the ideal use of your staggered solid axle.
First off a fix can be making the fronts turn better. But if that's the fix there has to be a reason why they quit turning enough. The first thing which comes to my mind and I think the mind of most is the track lost grip. At first glance that sound like the answer and the obvious answer. But here's why it can't be the reason. Your only having a problem coming out of the turn or past half way or past the apex or what ever you want to call when you start coming off. My theory on how a staggered solid axle works tells me you are able to put enough weight on or already have enough weight on the LR when your slowing down going into the corner or you would have issues there too. I can also look at going into the corner slowing down OK, to mean you when slowing down your getting enough weight shifted to the fronts to turn it. You might even have too much grip and ability to turn it going in but your slowing down anyway so too much doesn't matter. If that's the case then early on you may even have a tight condition where tires are fighting each other for grip. If that was the case you'd also be explaining to us it just sort of slow over all. But since your not saying that I'll have to assume you have good speed early on.
Guess again I have to ask a question to go on. Do you have good speed early on, basically early on your as fast if not faster then the rest? I'm especially interested in if your good early on but even though your good early on, the others just seem to have a little bit more at the very end of the straight before turning into the corner????
... I have to stop, I lost my train of thought and ain't sure it was on the right track to begin with. ...
It's tough to help out without more info. I like to think about how stuff's working. Others can see what you need by looking at your numbers if you post them. If you don't have numbers to post, post what you have and it may point others thinking in the right direction to help you.
racing promotor
Moderator
Where to look first If
It's off going in to start of appex look at the front.
It's off in the middle look at Cambers, Track width's, Caster ( some )
It's off on exit look at the rear
From middle off if the entire kart drifts up and aims at the wall 90 + % of the time to much left and cross.
If %ages are with-in reason then it's mostly Tires.
It's off going in to start of appex look at the front.
It's off in the middle look at Cambers, Track width's, Caster ( some )
It's off on exit look at the rear
From middle off if the entire kart drifts up and aims at the wall 90 + % of the time to much left and cross.
If %ages are with-in reason then it's mostly Tires.
Red rocket
New member
It's a 12 year old kid driving not me so I think by looking at it hes pushing from early in the race and seems to get worse, he starts out being only a tenth of the leaders and by the end two tenths off. By the looks it's not real bad but he's telling my it tight coming out. Does helix have a thin wall axle and a thick wall axle?
csteel14golf
New member
Earl hit the nail on the head right here. Find out what the issue with the tires is. If a kart changes during the race its tires, if it suck right off the bat its chassis.
paulkish
old fart
Here's my wild guess for a fix. Remove the nuts and bolts which hold the back of the seat and if the 12 year old is slight of build, raise the seat up 1", put new holes in it and bolt it back down. If the 12 year old is more then slight of build, do the same only raise it up 3/4" instead of 1".
Just a guess on a fix, if ya try it let us know how it changed things if any.
Just a guess on a fix, if ya try it let us know how it changed things if any.
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
That will just make things worst.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Red rocket has not responded with any information at all. Seems strange to me.
Without knowing the class, the weight or the track, isn't it a little hard to give out information on setup? And would it be easier to give advice if we knew the setup he was running now?
Talk about throwing darts in the dark.
Without knowing the class, the weight or the track, isn't it a little hard to give out information on setup? And would it be easier to give advice if we knew the setup he was running now?
Talk about throwing darts in the dark.
paulkish
old fart
I think your exactly right Al.
I'm throwing my dart towards the low weight of a small young driver, not being able to cause the kart chassis to operate. I'm thinking the kart is never getting off the LR. It will turn in OK. But after that when acceleration starts there's never enough weight moved onto the RR to help rotate the kart, by having the RR out accelerate the LR.
It nets out to the fronts doing all the turning coming off the corner. As the race goes on the fronts start to loose there ability to turn the back as needed and the push starts. The slow initially comes from never getting up to speed down the straights like others do, because speed and hp is being used up by the conflict between the fronts and the rears coming off the corner. The kart will handle fine early on especially going into the corner and the driver will feel competitive the first lap or so, while other karts are getting rolling.
My suggestion is totally based on what I just explained. I'm suggesting raising the seat a little if the driver is not slightly built and a little more if it is a small driver. Before I suggested anything I went out on the web to research average weights of a 12 year old and also a 13 year old. Since it's winter and off season, I hedged my suggestion based on the driver being heavier next racing season.
I looked at a possible solution based only on the difference in rear tire surface. It is fact the LR has a slower surface speed and I feel it is fact that if the LR is well weighted it's probably going to turn into the corner OK. And I also feel it's fact that if you don't get enough weight over to the the RR accelerating coming off, lack of rotation in the back is going to have to be over come by the fronts. And that will both eat hp and tax the grip ability up front.
Am I correct about the solution? I don't know, but I feel confident I'm correct about the logic and 'theory' [which I can alter if necessary to fit the facts ...
]. No in this case the 'theory' is correct. If the facts change it's not the theory which needs adjusted, the facts will be applied to the correct theory differently. Well I think it's correct because the "theory" is just IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ...
and... yep answering with a suggestion with so little info is throwing darts in the dark.
paulkish
old fart
Why do you say it will make it worse?
I don't race and looking at your name on here, I figure you have experience and have heard Red Rockets problem many times and it's usually fixed by something else.
We don't have setup numbers to go on, only info of perception and loosing an additional 10th as the race goes on of what the kart is doing on the track. What do you think is the cause of the problem and what do you think might be the solution?
I have another question and it relates to prep. The problem is described as a push, I almost never look for a fix that might eat hp. I can see prepping the RF tire to keep it turning, but my logic also is telling me don't do it because your just increasing conflict between the front and rear... tightening it up. And my logic is also telling me were not getting enough out of the RR coming off.(only setup numbers would show if I'm seeing it correctly or not) Could a solution be to prep some grip into the RR?
And/or since any adding of grip IMHO eats hp, maybe loose some grip from the LR so long as or until it no longer wants to turn in?
Thanks for making me think about it some more. Does either loosing grip at the LR or gaining grip at the RR, via altering the tires themselves, fit for you as a solution? I hope I get a yes, but a no is fine too.
This is a fun thread Red Rocket, but please throw us some setup numbers. If you throw in numbers now I think you'll get good suggestions from those who race and know numbers. I think my BS is OK mainly because it is my BS, but you need to know what to do to fix the thing. numbers please ? ...
racing promotor
Moderator
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
Al, he replied yesterday that its his 12 yr old kid, that means hes a Jr2 driver, and weight in that class is somewhere around 290, no problem there.
Paul, i said that because its 99% a tire issue, most likely too soft. He said it gets worst as the race goes on, very good indicator of, once again, too soft a tire. What you told him to do will only add to the problem.
Creating more front grip via prep, if tires are too soft already, this wont help.
Paul, i said that because its 99% a tire issue, most likely too soft. He said it gets worst as the race goes on, very good indicator of, once again, too soft a tire. What you told him to do will only add to the problem.
Creating more front grip via prep, if tires are too soft already, this wont help.