No need for animal.

Brettm57 said:
CarlsonMotorsports (or whoever else wants to respond): In thinking about your response some more, how much is typically machined off the block deck and head of Animal to build a WKA legal stock? I understand it's going to vary from engine to engine when building to a certain spec, but generally how much is machined off? Why I ask is I'm thinking that would be the main difference between the Animal I built (which was a WKA legal stock) and doing the same thing to an LO206.
Click to expand...

Typically, very little is machined off of the deck of the block. You are allowed to have +.005" piston pop-up with a WKA animal, so you want to get as close to that as possible. If you start with an animal block from the factory, you will have to machine the deck considerably (.005" - .015.") I start my animal builds with a factory certified 206 and build from there. The reason is that often times I get a block with positive piston pop-up right out of the box, which then requires no further machining. Now, if the 206 block has the piston in the hole, we'll set it up in the mill and take a few thou. off.

The cylinder head will require anywhere between .010" and .015" machined from the gasket surface. That is a considerable amount of increase in compression, but even still, it is nothing like the increase you get from a domed piston. Do the machining above, and add the domed piston, and you've got some real bark, yet reliable combination.
 
Brian
Here is the coleman starter infor from S&M kart supply. This is a wholesale price only available to kart shops. S&M does not sell to the general public. Lets say you have $25.00 shipping.
Now it's a $203.00 starter with out any mark up. I don'[t know any real kart shop that doesn't mark up what they sell.
Lets say they mark it up bu a factor of 1.2 that means the price is $243.00. Yep it's less than $300.00 but notice that it says they are CURRENTLY OUT OF STOCK. That has been a continual problem getting Coleman starters for some time.
JC always seems to have the Burris starters in stock.

Coleman Super Mini Gear Drive Starter <b>(No Battery)</b><br><b> ** CURRENTLY OUT OF STOCK **</b> Anticipated Restock Date 05.06.2020​
CSMGDS​
$177.74​
 
It doesn't matter how much you can or are allowed to machine off the deck or the head gasket surface to make an Animal.
The fact remains that you still have to set up the machine and when ever i do that it means it needs to be done with a dial indicator and the set up time drives the cost up.
With the Super stock and using a legal 206 block and head you don't have to do any of that machining.
It's so much easier to just put in a domed piston.
I put 2 blocks together yesterday and just for fun i did it without using a ring compressor just to see if i could do it.
I used the original ring sets from the pistons that were in the engines. I'm going to take them apart again today and put new rings in and use a ring compressor.
In fact i'm going to have an exchange program for the short blocks. Call me at 920-207-9180 for details.
 
Jimbo said:
Brian
Here is the coleman starter infor from S&M kart supply. This is a wholesale price only available to kart shops. S&M does not sell to the general public. Lets say you have $25.00 shipping.
Now it's a $203.00 starter with out any mark up. I don'[t know any real kart shop that doesn't mark up what they sell.
Lets say they mark it up bu a factor of 1.2 that means the price is $243.00. Yep it's less than $300.00 but notice that it says they are CURRENTLY OUT OF STOCK. That has been a continual problem getting Coleman starters for some time.
JC always seems to have the Burris starters in stock.

Coleman Super Mini Gear Drive Starter <b>(No Battery)</b><br><b> ** CURRENTLY OUT OF STOCK **</b> Anticipated Restock Date 05.06.2020​
CSMGDS​
$177.74​
Click to expand...


Just going by what I see on the web, Jimbo.
Not a plug for NR Racing by any means, but he's got them MUCH cheaper than the $300 price you quoted.

https://www.nrracing.com/category-s/1994.htm
Again, it doesn't really matter -- YOU DO NOT NEED a remote starter for an animal engine if you use a cam with the compression release on it (Dyno Cams offers them.)
Suggesting that it is a necessary expense was simply misleading (aka Fake News) that you are so fond of.
Hey, I like the SS package, but be honest about your comparisons is all.
 
Brettm57 said:
CarlsonMotorsports (or whoever else wants to respond): In thinking about your response some more, how much is typically machined off the block deck and head of Animal to build a WKA legal stock? I understand it's going to vary from engine to engine when building to a certain spec, but generally how much is machined off? Why I ask is I'm thinking that would be the main difference between the Animal I built (which was a WKA legal stock) and doing the same thing to an LO206.
Click to expand...
As I read the rules .
the animal head , shallow .011 -floor .319 .
LO206 shallow .030 - floor .340 .
So .019 thousandths differnce . In the shallow area .
Now if the animal head is not machined to spec , i assume its much closer to the LO 206 spec .
 
flattop1 said:
As I read the rules .
the animal head , shallow .011 -floor .319 .
LO206 shallow .030 - floor .340 .
So .019 thousandths differnce . In the shallow area .
Now if the animal head is not machined to spec , i assume its much closer to the LO 206 spec .
Click to expand...

All the new(er) inventory is coming in already cut to LO206 spec, so that saves in the amount of passes necessary...but as Jimbo pointed out, the TIME setting it up in the mill is where the expense is. It takes the same amount of time to set it up to cut .001" as it does .020." (at least the way we charge.) :)
 
Sanco Motorsports said:
If the original post was in the 206 forum, or sprint forum, would have been better received. To say the animal is not needed because of the super stock 206, makes little sense to dirt oval guys.
Click to expand...

Likewise if it were posted in the sprint/road course section.
Animals have been non-existent there for years now.
 
We charge $30.00 to mill the head or the block deck surface. We do a lot of milling here during race engine building. We just like to make sure these surfaces are flat and a preferred finish for good gasket sealing. Its also not unusual for us do do a light clean up pass on these surfaces to clean up the warpage, mainly on the head deck surface during rebuilds. We have dedicated Bridgeport mills with fixtures just for heads and blocks so we never have time for set up. Basicly it takes about 15 minutes to mill head and block, and some of that time is making the measurements.

Steve
 
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KIMG1673.jpg

Here are a couple of short blocks i put together on Saturday afternoon.
The one on the right was a sprint racing engine and had a blown side cover gasket with 2 seasons on it.
It took a standard size piston
The one on the left was a dirt oval motor so i honed it out for a .005" oversize piston.
Both have very good cranks as well with the rod journal measuring 1.098" and the keyway for the clutch is in excellent condition.
Cleaning them up took the most time.
 
I thought when the 206 came out that they pushed engine builders would be glad to by the used 206's for 200.00+? you mean briggs lied? go figure
 
XXX#40 said:
I thought when the 206 came out that they pushed engine builders would be glad to by the used 206's for 200.00+? you mean briggs lied? go figure
Click to expand...

Jamie,
Few things (including your obvious stretch of the truth) - LOL
- Questioning where you came up with your $200 number when a brand new short bock is still only $300 today (nearly 10 years after the LO206 was introduced.)
- There is a market for used 206 short blocks, but they are short in supply (many are still competitive after 8 years of racing.) The market seems to be other 206 racers wanting a well worn in engine!
New for this year is that the first 2 years of production runs will have the short blocks phased out due to old seals (although many clubs are permitting them to continue to be run.) That has filled the need for some short blocks to be converted for use in other classes, but still many racers are wanting to purchase "brand new," not "mostly new."
- Much of the karting world had already embraced the clone (and now Predator) engine in the oval world, and that squeezed out much of the animal existence that there was. With no animal classes to run at many oval tracks, there isn't much need for seasoned short blocks to alcohol animal.

We still build quite a few (new & used) and it seems to have picked up over the last coupe of years again on ovals - at least our sales are showing that. Bigger surprise is the draw for small block opens.

FWIW, I don't offer $200 for worn out 206s, but I still offer a small discount (and free labor to our existing customers) on re-short blocking their 206 engines.
Its not much, but it's a way we try to help out our racers.


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
31 years of service to the karting industry
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
Jamie,
Few things (including your obvious stretch of the truth) - LOL
- Questioning where you came up with your $200 number when a brand new short bock is still only $300 today (nearly 10 years after the LO206 was introduced.)
- There is a market for used 206 short blocks, but they are short in supply (many are still competitive after 8 years of racing.) The market seems to be other 206 racers wanting a well worn in engine!
New for this year is that the first 2 years of production runs will have the short blocks phased out due to old seals (although many clubs are permitting them to continue to be run.) That has filled the need for some short blocks to be converted for use in other classes, but still many racers are wanting to purchase "brand new," not "mostly new."
- Much of the karting world had already embraced the clone (and now Predator) engine in the oval world, and that squeezed out much of the animal existence that there was. With no animal classes to run at many oval tracks, there isn't much need for seasoned short blocks to alcohol animal.

We still build quite a few (new & used) and it seems to have picked up over the last coupe of years again on ovals - at least our sales are showing that. Bigger surprise is the draw for small block opens.

FWIW, I don't offer $200 for worn out 206s, but I still offer a small discount (and free labor to our existing customers) on re-short blocking their 206 engines.
Its not much, but it's a way we try to help out our racers.


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
31 years of service to the karting industry
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
Click to expand...
You forget, I was here when TheFact and briggs was pushing the idea to run the 206 until it needed rebuilt, sell the sealed block to animal builders for up to 200.00, again smoke and mirrors
 
Where are these $200.00 worn out 206 motors? I don't mean just the short blocks. $200 is a great price for the billet flywheel, ignition system,
PZ carb, in take, recoil,tins? I mean a complete old 206 motor.
 
wow, $300 for a short block lawn mower engine and you can sleep at night

I'm about to buy a self propelled lawn vacuum shredder for right around $600

$300 for short block lawn mower engines has got to be the sellers sale of the century.

Sure knowledge, time and experience to put the add ons to it is what the racers market will bear
but common now $300 for a lawn mower short block even with a wizz bang fly wheel, give me and racers a break

yeah, i'm proly not understanding the whole game correctly and only keying in on
$300 FOR A LAWN MOWER SHORT BLOCK !

Shouldn't be more then $75 tops and that's still probably $50+ markup for the supplier

If Harbor Freight can sell a whole engine for $99, Brigs a big buyer should be able to buy short blocks for $10 at most in quantity.
 
paulkish said:
wow, $300 for a short block lawn mower engine and you can sleep at night

I'm about to buy a self propelled lawn vacuum shredder for right around $600

$300 for short block lawn mower engines has got to be the sellers sale of the century.

Sure knowledge, time and experience to put the add ons to it is what the racers market will bear
but common now $300 for a lawn mower short block even with a wizz bang fly wheel, give me and racers a break

yeah, i'm proly not understanding the whole game correctly and only keying in on
$300 FOR A LAWN MOWER SHORT BLOCK !

Shouldn't be more then $75 tops and that's still probably $50+ markup for the supplier

If Harbor Freight can sell a whole engine for $99, Brigs a big buyer should be able to buy short blocks for $10 at most in quantity.
Click to expand...

Yep, not understanding the sealed 206 shortblock program, Paul.
I wish they could be cheaper as well, but the wages Briggs offers their workers in Wisconsin, I'm just betting, are substantially higher than the Chi-Coms offer their employees for their $35 Predator.

FWIW, the wizzbang flywheel does not come with it for that price. :)
 
And what are people paying for the “next best thing” Chinese motors now? It’s not $99. Not saying 206 or the ss is sliced bread. It just another choice for racers. Prices for the 206 have went up, yes. But let’s be real about these $99 clown motors. Not what they said that was going to be either, right?
 
I believe the superstock program is a viable program. It utilizes the 206 engines with the outdated seals, (of which there is a slew of) in an economical way. There is a void to fill when those racing 206 want to go faster. This package keeps them in the 4 cycle fold, as it is what they have been racing only faster and the learning curve is less steep than crossing over to 2 cycle racing. The rule set is very straight forward. On the west coast we are excited about this.
 
I have undertaken the west coast mentorship of the superstock program. A customer can buy a kit from me or bring me their running out of date 206 and for $600 plus the cost of briggs methanol jet kit receive a superstock prepped and ready for their clutch and pipe kit.
 
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