OK, so....Why is there a "No Pop-Up Rule"?

sCREamnClones

New member
I know it's always 'been', but...what's the point/purpose of the rule? Please don't answer w/....cuz it didn't come from the factory that way! However, if that is/were the 'real' answer, then why would it be carried over too 'modified' classes....just 'real' curious(?)
 

C&L_MOTORSPORTS

New member
Got to agree with you by it shouldn't be in the mod classes. If you don't have a cc rule whats the point? Just as in stock appearing, as long as it looks like a factory block and head from the outside it should be wide open on the inside. They could limit you to a stock appearing carb in appearance but a no tech otherwise. Why bother building a mod class engine if your limited to what you can do. It's just an overpriced Builder Prepared. Factory stock casting head and leave it up to the builder to what size valves he uses and how its ported.
Although the 200 and the 390 blocks should be separated in classes.
JMO Donnie
 

Flash06

New member
Got to agree with you by it shouldn't be in the mod classes. If you don't have a cc rule whats the point? Just as in stock appearing, as long as it looks like a factory block and head from the outside it should be wide open on the inside. They could limit you to a stock appearing carb in appearance but a no tech otherwise. Why bother building a mod class engine if your limited to what you can do. It's just an overpriced Builder Prepared. Factory stock casting head and leave it up to the builder to what size valves he uses and how its ported.
Although the 200 and the 390 blocks should be separated in classes.
JMO Donnie
"Why build a mod engine if your limited to what you can do?" That's exactly what I've been saying forever, why bother just stay in box stock. And why angle rules in the mod classes to cut costs, if you wanna save money don't run a modified racing class go back to box stock. Now we got retarded box stockers trying to go to modified class racing on a budget putting a bunch of stupid rules and restrictions on mod racing, it takes all the fun out of it we might as well just run box stock!
 

W5R

New member
I also agree, Mod or Limited Mod classes should be just that, modified engines. At least more should be allowed than is allowed in stock classes. Seems like its just a box stock with only a few less rules
 

mikey56

New member
our rules state...."Must appear like a stock clone, BSP or Harbor Freight Predator #61280 (Stock) or #60363 (Hemi Head) engine at all times from any distance." basically, you can do pretty much what you want on the inside, but you can't alter the outside look from what it was when you took it out of the box. The carb can't have any expoy on the outside and must be manufacturered for the 6.5 clone.

But to your question on the pop-up, i would think that it goes back to a cc rule. when you measure cc's (at leat the way that i've always done it), you have the head off the motor and using a pipette and plate, you flow liquid (I used alcohol) into the head and measure the amount that it takes to fill it. if you are on say a 14cc minimum (meaning no less than 14cc's) rule, then a pop-up or pop-out piston (again, my understanding is a piston that travels above the surface of the block) circuments the cc rule by decreasing the combustion chamber size, thus reducing the cc's and raising the compression.

please....if i'm wrong on this correct me. but, i think that this is one explination on the ban of pop-ups.....
 

DirtyDan

Member
Nobody seems to want to address your question? Being the kind of folks that like to push that combustion chamber size to a minimum if pop-out piston were allowed then we would take it to the max I would suspect. This would result in extremely close piston to head clearances. Add in a little wear and suddenly you have piston smacking head right? Seems like the main reasoning for this rule in my mind.

The one I want to know about is the 1/4 hole (.251 nogo) for the oil return hole in the block.... If I got lazy and drilled out the hole to 5/16ths because it couldn't possibly make any real perfromance difference what the exact size is. Now that block will be a paper weight or have to be welded and re-drilled. Who thought up that little jewel of a rule?

Stay warm
DD
 

subbietjw

Member
the pop out thing really is a price thing... some of these motors aren't cheep to build!!! its a way for the guy that doesn't have a mill and a lath to save a few bucks... it also makes it easy for a guy that runs a standard piston and rod to keep up with a wisco set up... it keeps motors half way in line
 

Ted Hamilton

Design Drafter / Racer
its a way for the guy that doesn't have a mill and a lath to save a few bucks... it also makes it easy for a guy that runs a standard piston and rod to keep up with a wisco set up... it keeps motors half way in line

Ridiculous, even if true. Mod and limited mod classes are for engine builders to experiment, have fun, and race each other technologically. There's no place for "cheap" and "modified" in the same category. Man up your skills and pocketbook or be satisfied with mid-pack finishes. And this is coming from a machinist who no longer has a shop and is content to live in mid-pack UAS.
 

sCREamnClones

New member
Yes and NO to all the reply's....none of it makes any sense! Think about it....the rule has been there since day-1....WHY? Can/Would somebody w/ real knowledge of the 'Rule' kindly offer undarstanding too it. I ud bet that it has 'nothing' too due w/ 'modifing' the motor or 'breaking' parts and as far as cc'ing goes, that is only done in 'tech' at the assembly level. I will openly go along w/a valid reasoning, otherwise...it's another 'rule' that needs tending....ie 'modified' classes (ok for B/S). JMO
 

cc77

New member
I think you guys are missing the wore LIMITED mod. In means you are only permitted to do a LIMITED amount of modifications. A modified class is just a step above limited and there are some rules to follow there but a little more can be done to an engine. Seems you guys all want an open class where they only limiting factor is your wallet. Not being an engine builder I would assume the original reason the rule was put there was to try and limit the money that was put into THAT class. If you want an open class where you can tinker to your hearts content then run an open class and/or UAS.
 

rebsfan4

New member
I think you guys are missing the wore LIMITED mod. In means you are only permitted to do a LIMITED amount of modifications. A modified class is just a step above limited and there are some rules to follow there but a little more can be done to an engine. Seems you guys all want an open class where they only limiting factor is your wallet. Not being an engine builder I would assume the original reason the rule was put there was to try and limit the money that was put into THAT class. If you want an open class where you can tinker to your hearts content then run an open class and/or UAS.

Seems like logical thinking to me. Then again, people who CONSTANTLY whine and complain about being bound by rules that THEY don't like because they do not suit THEIR needs, rarely use logic when looking for a reason to complain. Stupid rules!!!! LOL
 

sCREamnClones

New member
Then you should have no complaints. There has been a no pop up CONSISTANTLY since day ONE.

I just ask a simple question as too what the purpose of the rule is? Did I attack the establishment or create a crime?? It is/was ONLY ment 2B a question, not a 'challenge'....yet!
Frankly, as an engine builder....I cudn't care less about BSP. but...I see 'modified' Clone motors having a 'Good' future! JMO
 
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mikey56

New member
'wrench....dyslexia kicked in on the numbers, but the "regular" predator is 68120, the big valve motor is 69730 and the hemi head is number 60363 (got the box in the shop). i don't know if my explination of the pop up/out is right or wrong. but it seems that the rule is either obsolete because of the head rules or the mystical magical reason for having the rule is to be held secret by the brotherhood of wka/akra. a rule that is either obsolete or made null by another rule (ala the head/combustion chamber rules) should not still be there. this is the problem that several have tried to get across to the sanctioning bodies....that the rules package isn't being rewritten or updated, it's only being added to and the obsolete, redundit or erroneous rules aren't being cleaned out. i've read what dynodon has put up for the rules package and i like them....easy to follow and understand...but it needs to go beyond just the motors....a rules package should also have safety, tech procedures, racing venue procedures....all of it...this is one reason that i'm an advocate of putting all the rules online and either letting everyone see them or offering them as part of a membership fee. either way...it gets the rules out there and they are easily modified (additions or deletions or to further explain). instead we have to kill a bunch of trees to print a book...i ain't a tree hugger, but dang! if you have a new tool that does the job better, easier and faster, then why are you still doing it the old fashioned way? reluctance to change and avoidance of stuff that you can't understand...that's what is keeping things like kart racing in the dark ages.
 

cc77

New member
That 'used-2B' the nice thing about this country....We WERE free too speak and have freedom-of-speech and Not be judged by those who Thought they KNOW better! We have Washington DC full of 'Logical-Liberal' thinkers! JMO

Wow nothing like taking a left turn there. You asked a question and I tried to answer it the best I could. Now I am accused of judging people. And if you asked the question and I had an answer to your question I guess.....well.....I did "know better" on that particular subject. I simply tried to explain the difference between a limited, a modified, and an open. Back in the day we had somewhat full fields of all three classes, later to be combined into one class with weight breaks respectively for each engine, and now to our present state.
 

sCREamnClones

New member
'wrench....dyslexia kicked in on the numbers, but the "regular" predator is 68120, the big valve motor is 69730 and the hemi head is number 60363 (got the box in the shop). i don't know if my explination of the pop up/out is right or wrong. but it seems that the rule is either obsolete because of the head rules or the mystical magical reason for having the rule is to be held secret by the brotherhood of wka/akra. a rule that is either obsolete or made null by another rule (ala the head/combustion chamber rules) should not still be there. this is the problem that several have tried to get across to the sanctioning bodies....that the rules package isn't being rewritten or updated, it's only being added to and the obsolete, redundit or erroneous rules aren't being cleaned out. i've read what dynodon has put up for the rules package and i like them....easy to follow and understand...but it needs to go beyond just the motors....a rules package should also have safety, tech procedures, racing venue procedures....all of it...this is one reason that i'm an advocate of putting all the rules online and either letting everyone see them or offering them as part of a membership fee. either way...it gets the rules out there and they are easily modified (additions or deletions or to further explain). instead we have to kill a bunch of trees to print a book...i ain't a tree hugger, but dang! if you have a new tool that does the job better, easier and faster, then why are you still doing it the old fashioned way? reluctance to change and avoidance of stuff that you can't understand...that's what is keeping things like kart racing in the dark ages.
I DO envy 'tact and diplomacy'! :)
 
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