Piston Rule

How about this rule that was written from day. As supplied from factory. Now I know there have been some pistons come through with the arrow the wrong way but that was an assembly error. As supplied from factory covers the individual who thinks he can do whatever he wants to the engine just because there isn't a rule that says he can't.
 
Any piston with an offset pin, offers a performance gain, when the offset is reversed. The rule is appropriate.
 
Any piston with an offset pin, offers a performance gain, when the offset is reversed. The rule is appropriate.
Dep this and post #3 tells pretty much everything.
The unfortunate thing is as you said what works for a 6 year old sometimes has to work for an adult as well.
its the rule and piston pin offset is the reason.
To add you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
I (myself) just have a real 'problem' with rules that have NO/ZERO importance and only create question-in-meaning! This particular rule 'appears' as a tool for 'Dis-qualification Purposes Only'! It has no-more or less basis too it than if you were too mix 8mm hex headed bolts w/ 10mm hex headed bolts in your blower housing and pull starter. That's exactly how irrelevant/ignorant the rule appears! Rulebooks should be viewed w/ Repect...Not Distain!! (Sori....end!)
 
not to argue this point...but my question is simple. How much of a gain? are we talking 1 horse here or .01 horse? it might make a difference, but is the difference noticeable? Can you swap the piston around and feel the difference in the seat of your pants? is it the difference between dynoing the motor at 12.34 horse and dynoing the same motor with the piston reversed at 12.35 horse? We are all after a performance gain, but I'm of the opinion that unless your talking .5 or greater, then your spinning your wheels. If the performance objective is to increase horsepower through a combination of parts, then you can achieve that easily. if your performance objective is to increase the output by turning the piston so the arrow points up, then (again, I'm thinking here, which can be dangerous!) your performance gain is so negligible that you end up violating a rule solely to violate a rule.

one thing that I fail to understand completely is the numbers game that some on here play....measuring and remeasuring has it's place....I do it myself when it comes to longevity and performance......but when your swapping the piston from arrow down to arrow up, then I fail to see how this would be such a dramatic increase that you risk a DQ...I still say that the rule is more for uniformity in rule compliance than performance.....

just me thinking again!! :)

hope everyone had a great Christmas and I wish everyone a very happy new year....and PLEASE remember to have a designated driver or better yet, stay at home and have fun with friends that you've invited to stay over and party all night long!! we can't afford to loose not one racer to some idiot driving that doesn't care about themselves or anyone else!!!!
 
Flat, I am not agruing, rather debating, because many say an offset piston in these motors does not provide a performance gain. I am simply stating that it "has" to in order to have a rule against it. You stated above that it does provide gains, and I am inclined to believe you. I am debating with those that say there is no performance gain. I agree with the rule if there are performance gains. I don't agree if there are none, but because some may not agree does not mean we won't abide by it.

"The unfortunate thing is as you said what works for a 6 year old sometimes has to work for an adult as well." This is a statement of a follower, not a leader or innovator. I am sure that leaders in this industry of 4 cycle racing don’t take the 6 year old answer. Jerry and Jody build great parts for our motors. I can guaranty that they never take the 6 year old answer on anything race related.

When encountered with a problem or a challenge, I find that applying Lean and/or Six Sigma concepts help to find root cause or develop solid processes. One of these processes is called "the 5 why's". Ask at least 5 whys to get to the root cause or reasoning.

Here’s an example for you: The vehicle will not start. (the problem or opportunity)

1. Why? - The battery is dead. (first why)
2. Why? - The alternator is not functioning. (second why)
3. Why? - The alternator belt has broken. (third why)
4. Why? - The alternator belt was well beyond its useful service life and not replaced. (fourth why)
5. Why? - The vehicle was not maintained according to the recommended service schedule. (fifth why, a root cause)

So the reason the vehicle will not start is not because the battery is dead, it’s because the vehicle was not maintained properly.
I work in a world where I cannot accept “because I said so”. I have been raised to question processes. The answer, “because we’ve always done it that way” is never acceptable. 
 
I (myself) just have a real 'problem' with rules that have NO/ZERO importance and only create question-in-meaning! This particular rule 'appears' as a tool for 'Dis-qualification Purposes Only'! It has no-more or less basis too it than if you were too mix 8mm hex headed bolts w/ 10mm hex headed bolts in your blower housing and pull starter. That's exactly how irrelevant/ignorant the rule appears! Rulebooks should be viewed w/ Repect...Not Distain!! (Sori....end!)

You appear to have my point 110%!
 
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Flat, I am not agruing, rather debating, because many say an offset piston in these motors does not provide a performance gain. I am simply stating that it "has" to in order to have a rule against it. You stated above that it does provide gains, and I am inclined to believe you. I am debating with those that say there is no performance gain. I agree with the rule if there are performance gains. I don't agree if there are none, but because some may not agree does not mean we won't abide by it.

"The unfortunate thing is as you said what works for a 6 year old sometimes has to work for an adult as well." This is a statement of a follower, not a leader or innovator. I am sure that leaders in this industry of 4 cycle racing don’t take the 6 year old answer. Jerry and Jody build great parts for our motors. I can guaranty that they never take the 6 year old answer on anything race related.

When encountered with a problem or a challenge, I find that applying Lean and/or Six Sigma concepts help to find root cause or develop solid processes. One of these processes is called "the 5 why's". Ask at least 5 whys to get to the root cause or reasoning.

Here’s an example for you: The vehicle will not start. (the problem or opportunity)

1. Why? - The battery is dead. (first why)
2. Why? - The alternator is not functioning. (second why)
3. Why? - The alternator belt has broken. (third why)
4. Why? - The alternator belt was well beyond its useful service life and not replaced. (fourth why)
5. Why? - The vehicle was not maintained according to the recommended service schedule. (fifth why, a root cause)

So the reason the vehicle will not start is not because the battery is dead, it’s because the vehicle was not maintained properly.
I work in a world where I cannot accept “because I said so”. I have been raised to question processes. The answer, “because we’ve always done it that way” is never acceptable. 
Okay lets continue this debate. I am sure jody or jerry do not have any question or concern for whether this rule has any merit or needs any explination.
As to My being a follower. Example when a twork I must tie off when stepping up on a step stool even though the lanyard will extend far enough for me to hit the floor surface. Question I ask is why , answer I get is because we said so. so You are correct I follow. though I did question the process no result.
Lets face it you do not have to follow the rule although if you make it to tech you will find that it was unacceptable and be dq'ed the why will be because you did not follow the rule.
Again it is a performance gain wether some one else say's it is not does not mean that it isn't just as my saying it is does not mean that it is.
 
With the piston installed so the wrist pin is as close to the valves as possible, you create slightly more leverage to move the crankshaft 90 degrees into the power stroke due to the increased angle of the rod. This is a very slight increase, if any at all.
The same principle applies to angle boring the cylinder, with the top of the bore as far forward as possible and the bottom as far to the rear as possible. (that will probably open up a whole new can of worms :) )

Both will also slightly increase pressure between the front piston skirt and the cylinder wall, possibly increasing wear a little.
 
With the piston installed so the wrist pin is as close to the valves as possible, you create slightly more leverage to move the crankshaft 90 degrees into the power stroke due to the increased angle of the rod. This is a very slight increase, if any at all.
The same principle applies to angle boring the cylinder, with the top of the bore as far forward as possible and the bottom as far to the rear as possible. (that will probably open up a whole new can of worms :) )

Both will also slightly increase pressure between the front piston skirt and the cylinder wall, possibly increasing wear a little.
Thank you Bob....Therefore, if flipping the piston over create's MORE ware (while NOT increasing performance!!) the Importers and supplier Should love and embrace the idea...right? (Sori....I just had 2go there!)
 
Relax...don't get all fired up. I believe you.

I'll bet if you demonstrated to OSHA that the lanyard is too long and that falling could still result in injury there would be changes at your job. OSHA would be asking your boss the "5 why's" while writing fines.

Also, if you read my posts I said that all my pistons are positioned appropriately for only one reason...I do not want to be DQ'ed. I never thought of it really until this thread started.
 
With the piston installed so the wrist pin is as close to the valves as possible, you create slightly more leverage to move the crankshaft 90 degrees into the power stroke due to the increased angle of the rod. This is a very slight increase, if any at all.
The same principle applies to angle boring the cylinder, with the top of the bore as far forward as possible and the bottom as far to the rear as possible. (that will probably open up a whole new can of worms :) )

Both will also slightly increase pressure between the front piston skirt and the cylinder wall, possibly increasing wear a little.

Thanks Bob. I'll put this to bed now.
 
Has anybody checked to see if the wrist pin hole has been put in parallel to the piston head and the skirt where the piston runs squarely in the cylinder?
when you deck the block do you cut it parallel to the crankshaft or the bottom of the block or the side where the side cover bolts on?
Do you check to see if the cylinder is perpendicular to the crankshaft? You would be amazed as to how out of square these blocks are.
 
hi ya screamer!! hows things out cali way? hope you and your family had a great Christmas and hope that you have a very happy new year!!!
 
Thank you Bob....Therefore, if flipping the piston over create's MORE ware (while NOT increasing performance!!) the Importers and supplier Should love and embrace the idea...right? (Sori....I just had 2go there!)

Flipping the piston would definitely cause more wear:D Now rotating it may or may not. Just like it may or may not make more power...but it will get you tossed out in the tech shed.:confused:
 
There's always Badminton people. Oh wait....that has rules. Maybe Competitive Bird Watching? Well crap....are you serious...that has rules too? Uh.... Uh.... How bout Frog Jumping? What!!! You mean to tell me there is the mandating of calming music must be played in their enclosures. What kind of stupid rule is that. RULES!!!! Everywhere you turn there are rules!!!! Oh wait......that's called life. They even have these crazy ways of hiding rules from you and throwing snazzy terms at them to keep you off your guard. In some places they have these things called LAWS. Who do they think they are foolin? That's just more stupid rules.........
 
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