Box Stock

predator vs ducar 212

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ponytl

Member
IF I understand this right the ducar is a hemi with a non hemi crank that has a clone crank taper.. with a non hemi dished piston... uses the non hemi cam, I'm sure i'm wrong on at least some if not all the details, Northern tools now has a 212cc non hemi engine that is kinda interesting also...
has anyone run these side by side any pros/cons on one over the other? if you had NO engines and no extra parts laying around and were starting from zero which platform would you start with...
rules clone .615 carb, aftermarket flywheel, stock rod sm pipe one class /billet rod any header in the other... no porting 10.8 springs stk rockers, any stk valve size intake .261 @ retainer exhaust .266 @ retainer any pushrods... 26cc measured out of the plug

thanks
 
Big question is rules state clone. If that's correct a predator or ducar 212. Would not be legal.
Beyond that I would go with the ducar.
Add flywheel , top plate and pipe your done.
Or add billet rod , I dislike small pipes.
 
212cc rule.... means you just about have to go with 212cc but side by side what predator or ducar and why? or is this best a mix and match...

one class requires stk rod and small pipe
one class is ok with billet rod and big pipe

looking to run both classes and would prefer to run one platform... 2 karts 2 engines as much the same as possible

the real question is which predator or ducar 212 and why?
 
The ducar has a better flowing head than the hemi, for one thing. I would use the ducar 212 bottom ends, and use new non hemi head on both, with a billet rod and big pipe on one and stock rod and small pipe on the other. Dyno cams CS cam in both should get you real close to the max lift allowed
 
The ducar already comes with a pvl flywheel I would use that platform as a start for the stock rod small pipe build. It takes clone cams and such. They do not currently to my,knowledge make a billet rod for the engine yet but if you have the ability or know someone who can, you can get a clone billet rod and bkre the wrist pin journal out to fit the ducar wrist pin and piston.

The billet rod big pipe build I would run the hemi engine simply because it takes clone cams and has flat top piston. The head comes with a shorter installed height of no shims are allowed. Change to a thin head gasket and would run mod2 or such cam maybe a bit more aggressive depending what lift at retainer is. Keep in mind the max lift is at the retainer which on hemi engines can be much more than cam lift. So say you have a max .261 at retainer you can't run much over a stock lift cam maybe a little more but I wouldn't push the lift limit with camshaft unless you know how to adjust lift at the retainer. These are my opinions now if went with the non hemi you can run a larger camshaft and would have a bit different build. These are my opinions based on experience with all engines.
 
The stock length clone billet rod and non hemi piston both will bolt directly into the ducar 212 engines and be very close to zero deck....the ducar crank takes clone rods
 
It does have a clone journal yea but the wrist pin is larger. He said if had no extra parts a,d was choosing a engine. The ducar already has a dish piston with a valve relief cut in it so if you change pistons you may have clearance issues
 
I have one with a clone stock length billet rod, flat top hemi piston, and non hemi rtc-8 head....that is why I mentioned you can use the clone rod in them. The ducar piston using a different wrist pin is why I said to use a non hemi piston, if you want to keep a dish piston in it. With the stock length clone rod and hemi piston, I was .010" below deck which was about perfect for a box stock build using a non hemi .010" head gasket, and 1.3 stamped rockers in the head with a mod2 cam and 26lb springs, it was a really good combo for box stock, I qualified 4th in a big box stock race, had a winning kart but got booted out of the way on the first lap and came back to 4th.

These ducar engines are nice, and are a really good short block to build with, i don't care much for the heads on them though personally
 
If your going to do all that part swapping with them then may as well start with predator engine from the get go. All you have above is a ducar block with all predator parts pretty much. The point of using the ducar is to use the whole motor. The heads not bad and is better than the hemi predator head flow wise, probably about even flow wise with the rtc heads.
 
boomer216 said:
If your going to do all that part swapping with them then may as well start with predator engine from the get go. All you have above is a ducar block with all predator parts pretty much. The point of using the ducar is to use the whole motor. The heads not bad and is better than the hemi predator head flow wise, probably about even flow wise with the rtc heads.
Click to expand...

That is where I was going... the DUCAR seems to be a GREAT value if you can still get them for $185 with the flywheel, throttle mount and chainguard... that is a DEAL for me to get to that starting point if I had nothing I'd need to spend $110 @ HF, $65 for the flywheel and $20 for the chainguard and $14 for a top throttle plate... Which might get me free shipping from the seller, so I'm at $209.. with zero shipping... NOW if it was me... and it's not... but i have 30yrs experience in importing container loads from around the world... I would have sweetened it a bit... in bulk the pulse fuel pump is .85 (1.95 if you only buy 100) I'd offer it in 2 versions with and without the fuel tank and muffler... the ones without would have the top plate, pump, filter, hose and fitting for the pump...
I think the consensus is a hemi block with flat top piston and a non hemi head, non hemi crankshaft.... from looking at it the NON hemi block is a nicer casting and LOOKS like it would be stronger I like the web design on the side cover.. and the overall finish is better and the only downfall of the non hemi is the camshaft carrier size? it's a very easy process to machine the non hemi crankshaft taper to fit the clone flywheel,
Cheap STOCK parts I like,
I like the automotive type valve spring retainers and keepers found on "some" predators
I like the Champion rocker arms if you must run 1 to 1
I like that clone cams fit in the hemi block
I don't like that clone cams don't fit non hemi block
Would be nice if all the cranks had the same taper
I like the abundance of reasonably priced parts
would be nice if all the valve guilds were one size
clones in all forms are the SBC of small engines
The huge plus is that others are willing to share information and that shortens the learning curve... I'm just now learning what guys were doing to Mac 91b1s in the 70s... not that I had the skill set to do it...
I get to build engines and watch my son race for about what it costs to go fishing...
p
 
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