Box Stock

Predators, Clones and all things in between.....

mikey56 said:
astro....then it becomes a matter of the cam and the lift that you want to run. the higher the lifter, the deeper the valve will open into the combustion chamber right? so then you are faced with the same problem....piston/valve interference. this is the area that I'm not really and not ready to accept and risk ramming the head of the valve into a brand new wiseco piston. this is why I said that not enough research has gone into the development of the hemi head for racing applications. it's not a question of why don't you, it's a question of what will it cost if you don't do it exact and right the first time.
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The lifter height issue?
I am assuming you mean a taller lifter. this is incorrect because you have to set up with the same clearance so no gain in lift.
now if you are talking about milling the head, again not quite as you are bringing the vavles closer to the piston not increasing the lift.
this in turn could cause a collision.
Simplest method to check valve to piston clearance is with modeling clay . place small amount on piston where you expect the valve to hit install head and valve gear/ assy, roll engine over remove head measure clay.
 
On a side note just checked and I have a 04 yearchassis never had a component bolted on.
Even though the 5 race 5 year old chassis never been wrecked 3 time track champion is a little hard to take it does happen just not quite as described.
 
i was only using that as an example of what racers do to other racers.

OK.....round two.....

Motors:
1. the big valve head has split keepers. nice!! can i use these keepers on other valves? the big head valves shafts measure 5.0, while the "normal" valve shafts are 5.5....
2. still wondering if the clone cam will fit in the 69730 engine or if it takes a predator specific cam.
3. if you swap out the lifters for shorter ones and reduce the length of the push rod, the by my way of thinking, you are reducing the lift that you wanted to achieve with the high lift cam and going back to basically a stock cam with a longer duration....is this right? i thought the idea was to push the valve open farther with a longer duration to pack as much fuel/air mix into the chamber. if you reduce the valve opening (size wise), then your not achieving (or reducing) the fuel/air mix that you want to pack in....
4. i want to learn....to measure in the hole depth, i lay a straight steel across the hole and the take a reading from the lower edge of the steel to the top of the piston at TDC...this will give me the numbers i need to determine if i want to cut the block...with this in mind, what is considered to be the optimum in the hole depth? zero is nice, but i'm hearing that might not be optimal...
5. giving the tires, tires, tires crowd the benefit of a doubt...what would be an good prep to use for asphalt without soaking in a bucket for two years before using the tires? i mean, what would be good to help with traction? just asking!!! i'm talking about a 15-20 lap feature....
6. i have a youngster that is starting racing...right now we have him on the stadium parking lot just turning laps to get a feel for the kart and to understand how it works...we need to add weight to the kart to bring him up. would a steel plate as a floor board work as part of this or would you recommend just the pucks? i'm talking that we need to add at least 40 pounds....he's skinny, but has a big heart for racing!!

and the list goes on!! jsut trying to get some to thinking outside of the little box that tells them that you can't do that!!!

:)
 
Don't know if this helps anybody, on a hemi, I cut .040" off head, used a .010" gasket, used 35 hp Briggs lifter ( longer) and clone push rods on a cl2. Geometry was spot on.
 
Mikey56
1. no
2. should fit will be loose. don't know.
3. no, right longer and farther is what you want. the lobe is still taller.
4. .000-.005 Imho
5. hot lap 2
6. puks or lead sheet in seat chunk at rear base of seat double bolted. font pan stiffens chassis
 
zzzactly what i wanted to know! thanks flattop1! oldschool00....i'm thinking about using the black mamba (275)....so i'm going to have to shorten the pushrods (i want to use chrome moly anyway), but i have to measure them first....and that's a whole other story!! need learn first! the hotlap sounds good...all i'm looking for isn't for prepping more than just giving a little more life to the tires...

dang!! i hate having to buy the split keepers for my hemi head....but i love em!!!!
 
mikey the clone cams will fit in the predator you have, but the cam journals are a little smaller on clone cams than they are on these predator 69730 engines. it will run with the clone cam, just not sure how long it would hold up or last. Id get the predator cam just to be safe. i put my bsp2 clone cam in my predator and let it run for about 45 mins with no issues or metal shavings in the crankcase, so yes it will fit but not perfectly.
 
Looking at the pics mod man posted of this new type 69730, the only piece I like is the head casting with it's nice D-shaped chamber with quench area for those that don't want to weld a head, but then the valves aren't canted which hurts flow. While the real keepers are nice the whole setup is a throwaway due to the 5mm diameter, block has the dished piston and requires the larger journal predator cams. Not a whole lot of good there in comparison to the Hemi.

To touch on your #3 question. Lift is based on the cam nothing more. Lifter and pushrod length needs to be adjusted when you shave the head or play with valve lengths. I like to shoot for having the rockers ~level to the head at 1/2 the lift. So if you have a .400" lift cam, at .200" lift the rockers should be level +/- so the geometry doesn't get too out of whack. Pushrods should be the last thing you do after the motor is all built.
 
My 60363 engine had the plastic cam gear. Also nice flat top piston. Changing all that out, for better stuff...
 
Jncyall said:
My 60363 engine had the plastic cam gear. Also nice flat top piston. Changing all that out, for better stuff...
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Your changing the flat top piston out? From what i have seen on here, while the Hemi engine may be the one most people want, it also seems to be the one most people complain about problems with when starting to modify them with aftermarket parts. I like the 69730 i have, it has much bigger ports in the head, bigger valves and the retainers are the locking ones. The only thing i didnt like about it was that i have to buy a predator specific cam, but that isnt too bad on the wallet. I am just using it for box stock anyways, and we cant use billet flywheels for box stock around here, so the cam is really the only aftermarket part i can use on this engine. The weenie pipe from my bsp clone fit the predator once i drilled out the bolt holes one bit size up, and the holy moses carb also fit on it. Cam and flywheel is basically the only parts that wont interchange with the clones.
 
the 363 predator that i have had the steel cam in it. but!! what you bring up (weddle racing) is in line with what i have to question. your class CAN'T use the billet flywheel, yet everyone says that you should watch out for flywheel explosions and that the stock flywheel is unsafe. now i know that someone out there is going to say that it's because you aren't turning the same rpm from a stock class to a class where the engine has been tweaked and modified. this makes no sense......bear with me....if the flywheel is going to erupt, then it really doesn't matter if your turning 3500 or 8000 rpm...the thought seems to be that the flywheel WON'T come apart at the lower rpm band but only when it reaches a higher rpm band. this is so wrong!!! it doesn't matter what the rpm is....if the flywheel is going to fail, it's going to fail at any rpm. just because you haven't heard one come apart at idle doesn't mean that it can't or won't. this is the paradox...whomever decided this rule is possibly suffering from the "if i never hear of it, then it can't be true" syndrome.

billet flywheels are by design safer than the stock one because you hear that stock flywheels come apart. don't try and explain the rpm issue because it's not the deciding factor in whether a flywheel is or isn't going to come apart. yet....rules are written that PROHIBIT using them because of what? weight? come on! this is lame!! on one hand you talk about a stock flywheel coming apart and on the other hand, you talk about using them for a stock type class.

this is one of the basic reasons that i question rules and try to see the logic in why the rule was instituted in the first place. you talk about safety of the racer, yet an engine that is capable of 8000 rpm has to have one, but an engine that turns about 5500 doesn't? this isn't being very safe at all!!

so let the "it's the way it's always been" and "you don't know what your talking about" and the "this engine doesn't turn that high so it doesn't need one" bashing begin!! and jsut so everyone knows....it doens't take a flywheel coming apart at idle to know that this is one rule that should be gotten rid of, but until that happens, those that write a rule like this will continue to think that it can't happen...until it does.....

and i bet that if you get with any flywheel maker (like arc) and ask about a stock weight flywheel being designed and produced, then you would find them very receptive to the idea....but like i said, until someone gets hurt racing one, then the rules will be the same...because it's only the modified engines that need them....bullpucky....
 
racer47 said:
A few years ago when I was racing asphalt cars, our track season was over. 3 of us from my division decided to go about 2 hours south to another track since their season hadn't ended yet. We pull into the pit area and we are met by one of the local drivers. He says "don't come down here thinking you are gonna beat us on this track". We smiled and told him we were just there to have fun. We qualified 1-2-3 and had a back and forth race all by ourselves. (except when we were lapping the slower locals) He wouldn't even speak to us the rest of the night. Oh well ....... He was a big fish in a small pond.
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On the flip side, I seen a crew roll into our local track I over heard them telling some other racers that they had won Championships in 3 classes at there local track, by the end of the night they were screaming that everyone was cheating because they got lapped.

After talking with them after the races I soon found out that they had only raced that 1 track for 2 seasons, they got good enough to beat those guys, and they had the perception they could go anywhere and win, they got proved wrong.
The next season I seen them again, they had gotten better because they started traveling to other tracks and racing better competition
 
I'm just now getting into karts and I was told this forum or site is the best to learn..I've got an older phantom chassis and a new predator motor..I would lime to get some basic setup tips ...I don't even know what size tires all around I should start with and as for aftermarket parts for the predator I keep getting different item numbers from everyone I wish I could get verification on which is the right ones the model number on my motor 69730...I don't have the money to race unlimited yet but would like to at least know the right size arc rod and flywheel and stuff..
 
It has a lot of good tips NOT THIS THREAD Do some searches up at the top right; Choice of Rods STD +.010 or+.020 O.A.L. depending on piston,Depth in cyl@TDC & what you want to do and how much you want to lose(spend); REALLY IN A Nutshell!!!!!!! Just Ask anybody
 
Todays Clone School Lesson

mikey56 said:
my going rate for asking questions is $35.00....so if i read the numbers right, then you owe me $10.00 for asking them! lol!!! and due to the length of the discussions that some have concerning the right way or the wrong way to put a piston in, the most fav-o-rite brand of oil, whether prepping a tire or not prepping a tire with (insert brand of cancer causing crud) is or isn't worth a dime when it comes to altering the molecular stability of the o ring gasket holding the whatchamacallit to the thingamobob.....i think my questions are right in line!!
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Mikey56, here is the deal. There is a lot of good info on here, you just have to evacuate by your own experience and common sense what is good info or not. There are 4 or 5 people on here that I really get good info that applies to my style of engine building. My engines are less expensive than most I race against and they last. I won 2 races last year and some 2nd and 3rd place finishes in the SA/Modified class. I drag raced and built Small Block Chevys for 35yrs and I use some of that knowledge to. My engines are a mix of clone and Honda parts, the only after parts are the rod, flywheel, cast 1.3 rockers, and valve springs. Bottom line you have to take chances to gain HP sometimes and these clones are cheaper than anything else to build. So get off the keyboard and go work and learn and enjoy working on these engines like I do.
 
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