Pushing on exit

thebigo

Member
...........depending on how soft that track is.
I don't know how to measure soft. Went on the track with the gentleman helping me out and he pushed his thumb print down (not the nail end) and said this is moist but will sometimes gets harder by the time for the feature. I tried to feel what he explained. He weighs 250 and I weigh 155. To me it felt like a football. Is there a better test?
 

racing promotor

Moderator
I don't know how to measure soft. Went on the track with the gentleman helping me out and he pushed his thumb print down (not the nail end) and said this is moist but will sometimes gets harder by the time for the feature. I tried to feel what he explained. He weighs 250 and I weigh 155. To me it felt like a football. Is there a better test?
You mentioned help from one of the top runners at that track, do you have any reason to believe he's not giving you straight up info and just told you that to sell you tires ?
Keep in mind for purple plate class less than 300 lb tires will have to be little softer than for Sr class at heavier weight.
 

thebigo

Member
You mentioned help from one of the top runners at that track, do you have any reason to believe he's not giving you straight up info and just told you that to sell you tires ?
Keep in mind for purple plate class less than 300 lb tires will have to be little softer than for Sr class at heavier weight.
NO, not at all. The tires didn't come till later when he noticed the cord is showing through. He's very knowledgeable and respected. Another racer who's in the same rank agrees with that. They run in the sr. clone hvy. One of the top runners in the same class as my grandson also said to try staying in the mid to hi 50 duro. The help I get from these guys is overwhelming and hard to retain at age 73. I try to jot down what they just said, but I lose a lot. Tat's why I like the forum. I can read it at my pace and repeat till I get it. You guys are awesome and I also get pm to add to that. I keep a very detailed report on every race, then scale the kart at the shop as it came off the last race.
 

racing promotor

Moderator
NO, not at all. The tires didn't come till later when he noticed the cord is showing through. He's very knowledgeable and respected. Another racer who's in the same rank agrees with that. They run in the sr. clone hvy. One of the top runners in the same class as my grandson also said to try staying in the mid to hi 50 duro. The help I get from these guys is overwhelming and hard to retain at age 73. I try to jot down what they just said, but I lose a lot. Tat's why I like the forum. I can read it at my pace and repeat till I get it. You guys are awesome and I also get pm to add to that. I keep a very detailed report on every race, then scale the kart at the shop as it came off the last race.
Sounds like maybe your take offs are just to thin not enough rubber left to go good, at that point you gotta nothing to loose by bringing duro down a little, sounds like a new 2021 set with no prep would be the ticket.
 

Skidude

Member
You're not kidding about good advise. But I'm a little confused because when I asked the top runners for help with the pushing concern, it was suggested to move washers from the RF top to the bottom. That reduces cross doesn't? Which is also in "NoGoats" suggestions. That's why I ended up with so many washers on the bottom of the RF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on some of the suggestions here, I have to move washers from the RF bottom to the top to increase cross. I may need more time to understand all this. Just hurts to see him stay with the pack and see them wait for him to exit the turn and take the inside. I appreciate your patience.
Yes, move RF washers from the bottom to the top to increase cross. Also, you can move LF washers From the top to the bottom to increase cross.
 

thebigo

Member
Sounds like maybe your take offs are just to thin not enough rubber left to go good, at that point you gotta nothing to loose by bringing duro down a little, sounds like a new 2021 set with no prep would be the ticket.
The tires I got measure exactly 2/32. Don't know what new rubber measure or after they're cut.
 

paulkish

old fart
You're not kidding about good advise. But I'm a little confused because when I asked the top runners for help with the pushing concern, it was suggested to move washers from the RF top to the bottom.
Yes that will reduce cross.
It raises the RF tire up so in the turn your weight can lean over more/better onto the RF helping you turn.
It will also help hold weight on the RF on exit when you start turning less and start accelerating.
The suggestions you got about it as others said are normally correct.

But your kart has to be able to work to make the change work.

Above others are suggesting more nose and tire prep to make your kart able to do the work.
You can make all the right changes to fix and on track problem but if your chassis/kart can't get it done per on track forces operating your kart, you either need grab at more grip and speed and/or do something to make it easier for your chassis to work.

Without the needed nose weight and grip suggestions the adjustment you made, though generally correct, probably made things worse because for it to help you needed to use on track forces, you did not have available.
 

thebigo

Member
Without the needed nose weight and grip suggestions the adjustment you made, though generally correct, probably made things worse because for it to help you needed to use on track forces, you did not have available.
Wow, so much info in this one sentence. Make sense that it "probably made things worse", because the changes I made at the RF did not make the chassis respond as expected. I confess, I don't exactly understand "on tack forces". Two and a half weeks to the next race night seem far away to try the new chassis setup and report back. I think the key change that will make the most sense is the front weight. We'll see.
 

paulkish

old fart
"on tack forces".
Your engine propels you around the track creating acceleration forward, laterally and when breaking.
G forces centripetal force, etc., because your turning.
Turn sharper or travel faster in the turn or any of the above and you make more "on track forces".

Your tires take advantage of available grip to allow you to apply what ever available hp you have and what ever momentum you build anywhere on the track.

Fast is about applying available hp to the track for forward acceleration and maintaining momentum between where you can apply available hp.
It's the forces created by your moving racer on the track which cause you to be able to operate your chassis.
Reduce or limit the forces available to you on the track and you either have to make your chassis work easier or do something to take advantage of more on track force.
The rest is up to your drivers skill applying the above and their racing experience and talent.

___________________________________________________________________

Looking at the track on the web you might suggest or talk about this with your driver.
Racers talk about hitting their points on the track to get things done.
It's a mindset thing about either hitting your marks or using an >>area<< of the track to accomplish something.

Never ever think of a "Point" as a real dotted point on the track which needs to be driven to.
You don't drive to a point you "travel" to an area where you will begin to accomplish a task.

Driving to a point, an example of is where you will enter a turn will put your driver in a mine set to take a straight line to the needed "point".
In the case of turn entry the straight line "will" cause them to do what's called chopping off a corner.

Chopping off a corner is driving straight to a point of entry which then leads too driving straight past their point of entry.
Straight past the point of entry is most always followed by too much driving straight after the point of entry which prevents the driver from completing enough of the turn soon enough.

If you don't get enough turning needed for a turn or end of the track soon enough, you will either have to slow down to complete the rest of the turn or "PUSH" on exit. The more acceleration you do on exit while still turning the more the exit push will be enhanced.

The track I saw on the web IMHO because of it's rounded ends of the track will easily cause a driver to chop off part of it by choosing to enter an end of the track driving straight past a point instead of using an area of the track to enter.

sorry if I confuse, I tend to be clear as mud ... :)
 
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thebigo

Member
sorry if I confuse, I tend to be clear as mud ...
No confusion there. What you wrote is what I'm trying to teach my rookie grandson. In the heat race I tell him to just follow another driver to see what points or line he's taking and not to worry where he finishes. Your explanation of track forces is appreciated.
 

flattop1

Dawg 89
Charging to the end of the straight then turning , shoots you across the turn with
More turning to be done at exit .
Going further into the turn a bit higher hopefully gets you across the turn with a straighter line onto the next straight .
Coming out of the turn lined up for the straight is the goal .
 

cgray

Member
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is where is the caster block position on the RF is it in the back or forward position? From personal experience with multiple different chassis I prefer the RF caster block in the forward position. I do not like how a kart drives with it in the rear position, from my experience they dart into the corner and just like yours push on exit. With my driving style they turned much better center off in the forward position. This has been true from a 04 blaze octane to a millenium impulse not sure of year to a 17 legacy. On a 1/8 with tight corners to a lightly banked 1/5 mile.
 

thebigo

Member
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is where is the caster block position on the RF is it in the back or forward position?
Our 2005 Millennium Tempest DOES NOT have options. The L-block has a threaded hole at the bottom (to swing about) and a thru hole at the top for the spherical rod to go through. The castor adjustment is done by changing an oval pill located at the top half of the chassis bracket. To change the factory settings of 8* and 12* the oval pill with the through hole must be offset from center. Those pills are not available anymore and Millennium does not support the chassis any longer.
 
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