Track Tac

Right rear tire wear

Pete what you point/arrow out can be the exact best stagger.
But it is not the only exact best stagger.
You can make multiple amounts of stagger work equally on any given race day and it is done all the time dirt oval racing.
 
stagger is not the only thing necessary to get around a dirt oval track.
Getting around is also about how you use or balance the use of your right side tires.
It's also about how much you are able to and do use your left side tire.

simply put, it's complicated far beyond unload the inside rear tire and make the fronts turn the thing
 
I was not pointing to any spot as being THE stagger. Only asking of stagger might end up somewhere between a minimum and a maximum (however someone chooses to arrive at those amounts).

PM
 
Theres very few race tracks ive been where both ends of the track were the same.
Then theres karts that react differently to stagger, then theres driving styles, etc.
Then theres the ones who know that corner speed makes straight speed. On a track thats an oval, if you cant get through the turns fast you will not be fast down the straights. The faster through the turns, the faster straight speed you have, and this can only be accomplished with having stagger.
Take Daytona for instance, or Possum Kingdom....both tracks with long straightaways and stagger is needed, but if you cant get through the corner on either end, you aint winning the race....period!!
 
alvin l nunley said:
My thinking is; twice the needed stagger in the corners and down the straights would be worse than no stagger in the corners and no stagger down the straights. It seems to me that twice the correct stagger in the corners is just as bad is no stagger in the corners. Where as, down the straights, no stagger is much much better than twice the stagger needed.
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You know what Al? Take your spreadsheets and your untested theories somewhere else! You are not helping anyone here be a better racer. You admittedly have no experience at dirt oval racing, but yet you are always arguing in favor of your untested theories. Let the people who know what they are talking about give the advise. Sit back, read, try to comprehend, and SHHHH already!
 
I think what most are trying to explain to Al is there an infinite amount of different staggers that will work equally well on any given race day.

At times Al you add into your push on calculating stagger that your only offering a calculation of a baseline stagger which should get you close.
Then what you offer in argument demands that others come into lock step with your calculations.

If someone knows how to adjust to make any close approximation of stagger work, the stagger is not working because of it being calculated.

There are also times Al your calculated result is so far out of line it's not usable in the real world of dirt oval racing.

... and yes I next expect you to as usual demand >I< or who ever else offers a thought your way off on your calculations, to research and present to you the "exact" of your error.
... no I won't do that ... :)

I sure wish you could see how stagger works Al instead of incorrectly trying to force it into some mental calculation picture you seem to have of all of what is about you. Look for the beauty of it, not the hard and fast cut in stone.

Though actual adjustments are always made in exact amounts, the reason for making any and every adjustment is by the seat of your pants, what you "think" you see with your eyes and how you perceive what you hear.

The "exact" adjustment is no different then the final brush stroke of an artist.
 
SoCo Tire Treatments said:
Theres very few race tracks i've been where both ends of the track were the same.
Then theres karts that react differently to stagger, then theres driving styles, etc.
Then theres the ones who know that corner speed makes straight speed.
Click to expand...

Understood, makes perfect sense.

Many moons ago when I raced enduro (road race, like the pic in my avatar), there were a couple of tracks where it was faster to run a bit of stagger (Willow Spring and Laguna Seca, both in California). I definitely never calculated it -- just tested and followed what the stopwatch said.

PM
 
Pete_Muller said:
Understood, makes perfect sense.

Many moons ago when I raced enduro (road race, like the pic in my avatar), there were a couple of tracks where it was faster to run a bit of stagger (Willow Spring and Laguna Seca, both in California). I definitely never calculated it -- just tested and followed what the stopwatch said.

PM
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One track clockwise, One track counterclockwise, which track favored which stagger? How much? I raced both tracks more than once.
 
Why are some people so upset with my spreadsheets. Don't they understand that spreadsheet is nothing more than a sophisticated calculator?? Take for instance the corner weights and percentages spreadsheet. For those who know how to do it, it's simple math, you can use a pocket calculator and figure it all out. I wonder how long it would take you, if you had the percentages "front", "left", "cross". & Total weight, to calculate the individual corner weights you need? I'm sure it's a long arduous task, and there's always a chance of making a mistake or 2. With a spreadsheet, you enter those 4 numbers, on the keyboard, and instantaneously the 4 corner weight show up. Or!! Put your kart on the scales, enter the 4 corner weights, press enter, and all your percentages and total weight show up. Change one of your percentages, and all the 4 corners change. Instantly. All numbers "absolutely correct", every time.

Same thing with stagger!! Now no one's saying that the stagger that the computer comes up with is going to be exactly perfect for you and your way of driving, but if your kart is turning a consistent radius turn, it's going to be very very close to the perfect starting point. Not saying it's going to be perfect for you, but it is perfect for that turn radius. Actually, no matter what line you follow around the corner, the stagger numbers don't change very much. Hypothetical, your home track is 150 feet across. Infield and 2 track widths. Next week you're going to a track that's 140 feet across. The spreadsheet is going to tell you your stagger is going to need to change about .200. Turn radius makes the major difference in figuring stagger, driving line appears to make only minor changes in stagger calculations. Now there may be many many more reasons for changing stagger, reasons the spreadsheet has no chance of calculating, only you can do that. After all, it's only a spreadsheet (a calculator) not a magician.

Tell me to listen (I do), tell me to go way (only Bob can do that), tell me I'm full of it (not everybody's opinion), disagree with me (some do)
 
alvin l nunley said:
Why are some people so upset with my spreadsheets. Don't they understand that spreadsheet is nothing more than a sophisticated calculator?? Take for instance the corner weights and percentages spreadsheet. For those who know how to do it, it's simple math, you can use a pocket calculator and figure it all out. I wonder how long it would take you, if you had the percentages "front", "left", "cross". & Total weight, to calculate the individual corner weights you need? I'm sure it's a long arduous task, and there's always a chance of making a mistake or 2. With a spreadsheet, you enter those 4 numbers, on the keyboard, and instantaneously the 4 corner weight show up. Or!! Put your kart on the scales, enter the 4 corner weights, press enter, and all your percentages and total weight show up. Change one of your percentages, and all the 4 corners change. Instantly. All numbers "absolutely correct", every time.

Same thing with stagger!! Now no one's saying that the stagger that the computer comes up with is going to be exactly perfect for you and your way of driving, but if your kart is turning a consistent radius turn, it's going to be very very close to the perfect starting point. Not saying it's going to be perfect for you, but it is perfect for that turn radius. Actually, no matter what line you follow around the corner, the stagger numbers don't change very much. Hypothetical, your home track is 150 feet across. Infield and 2 track widths. Next week you're going to a track that's 140 feet across. The spreadsheet is going to tell you your stagger is going to need to change about .200. Turn radius makes the major difference in figuring stagger, driving line appears to make only minor changes in stagger calculations. Now there may be many many more reasons for changing stagger, reasons the spreadsheet has no chance of calculating, only you can do that. After all, it's only a spreadsheet (a calculator) not a magician.

Tell me to listen (I do), tell me to go way (only Bob can do that), tell me I'm full of it (not everybody's opinion), disagree with me (some do)
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Problem is there is no "perfect" stagger for any racetrack most of the time because there very rarely is a consistent radius, and each end of the track is different at almost every track.
Al, the problem isnt so much your spreadsheet, but that you push it onto people so strongly without any experience in todays karting world.
Now if someone wants to try a spreadsheet, more power to them. I can go to a track, and come up with a stagger that 99% of the time will work by looking at it, others cant.
 
At any track on any given race day there are those who just know what to do for track and grip conditions.
Those people are far and few between.

Except for a time years into it, before switching to dirt oval, at our first sprint track I knew what to do for that particular track.
But beyond that time I am not one of those people.

I am also not a note taker so my only option per me was to try to learn how stuff works.

I think I understand it almost well enough now, thanks to Bob and the kind people on here.

As LTG always said if you want to go faster add bite.
Though when he helped us on here I did not understand it I think I do now, per my own thought process.

There is available hp, available grip, available momentum and how the driver uses the hp, grip and momentum available to them.
That's all there is and that's all you have to work with.

Neither grip nor hp nor momentum are ever available beyond need because one always puts limit to another.
 
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For argument sake here are a couple pictures of the track. One from the track website and one a screenshot from google earth.
5D26FA03-3BF2-45ED-B3AF-688ED53E4A53.jpeg
211064B2-3707-4AAE-990E-66FEFA17E7EB.png
 
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If you ride high on the straights on this track it will slow you down, a lot.
8C1044D8-9E60-48AA-871E-2C35CBD4CBAE.jpeg

They could easily fit 2 more karts beside these 4.
 
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