Side Cover and Block Issues....

mikey56

New member
So...i'm posting this under the clone heading, but it's an issue with the predator as well. i built two new engines at the start of the 2014 racing season. both were built using stock side cover bolts. although the bolt issues have been hashed and trashed on here, this isn't about the bolts, but about the blocks...in particular, the top two side cover bolt holes in the block.

we bult the motors and torqued the side cover bolts to 17ft-lbs. after a good run, we had to pull the engines down for checking and other issues.....but we found that the top bolt holes on the block, in particular (looking straight on at the block from the side cover side), the top bolt hole on the right was cracked in my son's hemi predator block and the exact same hole was broken in my clone (the piece was laying in the bottom of the crank case).

has anyone else had this happen and if so, what did you do?

for me it was a little jb weld on the stud (we swapped the bolts out for studs) and run it down snug and let it cure...no issues....for my son's block, we are going the same route, but having a friend look at it to see if he can weld up that area.

if it was just a clone or jsut a predator, then i could say that it was just one of those things....but two different style and make of blocks having the same issue? and they were built at the same time and all the side cover bolts on both engines were torqued the same.....

any idea's or suggestions?
 
I have never worked on either so just throwing it out there. Is it possible the bolts were too long? I have caused similar issues with too long of bolts
 
I have never worked on either so just throwing it out there. Is it possible the bolts were too long? I have caused similar issues with too long of bolts

This is a 'slight' possibility, but unlikely becuz if the side cover wasn't tight too the case/block, i'm certain oil would have leaked. However, this senerio draws my concern when using thread stock as 'studs'. A positive feature in using studs is too allow them too strengthen the component/block they are mounted into by tightening/torqueing them in place. Doing so w/thread stock bottoms the 'stud' out at the bottom of the threaded hole in the block of which create enormous pressure in the area and would be prone too break/fail as noted 'here'. My 2-cents worth of advise is too utilize shouldered studs that are threaded from 'both' ends such that the torqued stud will 'tighten' at the shoulder of the stud...as does the 'Burris Stud Kits'. JMO
 
I had this issue when I used solid dowel pins in the block. Went back to the stock ones and hasn't happened since. I'm just assuming that was the problem.
 
thanks for the responses....i'm looking at the original bolts and they were the same ones that we pulled out when we started the builds...now, I can't say that they went in the same bolt hole, but they were the same ones that we pulled out. bottoming out I honestly didn't think of...going to check on the predator hemi that I've started and going to see if I can get a half decent depth...maybe that is an issue...

I didn't replace the dowels until I swapped them out for the stud kit...so that wasn't a contributing factor.

oil leakage is one of the reasons that we pulled the engines down...it wasn't excessive, just enough to let us see that we had a leak. we've been using Lucas Karting Oil from ARC and from running it the last few races...I have noticed a slightly cooler engine (don't have a temp gauge so it's just a feeling) and it really feels like the engine is running better and smoother!
 
It could be a material issue, steel and aluminum is always susceptible to stress risers and cracks. Raw material pricing is pretty competitive around the world these days, there's only a few sources of raw materials and not so many smelters and mills so there's not a lot of difference in cost to produce new aluminum and steel globally. The variable comes in recycled materials, how much is added to the mix and how well it is compensated for. A fully machined aluminum clone block sells for $39 retail. Do the math, $39 minus markup, freight, packaging, machining, foundry costs, and whatever else gets added and you're left with about 50 cents for material. I've never had one analyzed but an educated guess tells me you're not getting aerospace grade aluminum in clone & predator blocks.

A friend of mine had a very expensive pro-built clone that lost all of the oil and seized in its first race. We found a small crack in the side cover, nobody's fault, just a manufacturing defect that went unnoticed.
 
Mikey don't be offended, your previous posting regarding Royal Purple yielded a cooler better running engine. The Lucas has made it cooler and smoother again that must be a fine working engine now.
 
thanks for the responses on the bolt holes...still going to check the depth and see if there is a defined difference....thanks!!

on the oil...no offense taken!!....we ran royal purple during our car racing days and had two cases left over when we started karting. I like the way (and still do) royal purple handled the heat and the heat transference in our engines. I spoke with jody at arc at length about the lucas karting oil and what gains could be expected before I used any. between my son and I we agreed to give it a shot and see. comparing the two, I like the heat transference properties of both, but for some reason, when it comes to "feeling" the heat, I have to say that the "feeling" that I get during the race is that the heat is less using the lucas karting oil versus the royal purple...

and again, just a feeling that I get....the lucas oil seems to be a little "slicker" when you rub a little between your thumb and first finger....you'd be suprized at how sensitive your finger tips are in detecting minute particles...it's something my dad always did and he showed us boys about feeling, hearing, touching, smelling....using our senses. is it a definitive method? nope....can't say that it is really even a possibility....just what I feel.....

your right about a good running engine now...i'm going to swap the head with the new 730 head that I've had some work done to which will give me a little more compression and I think that we have hit on a good combination (discounting the side cover issues) of parts and oil on the new motors and look for even better results.
 
I stopped using the dowels and just use the stud kits now.even though I never had a bolt back out or a side cover crack
and twisting them to 9000rpm.but I have had the cam boss pocket break out on the flywheel side.but now weld that up.
 
The material in the block is not that much of a problem. The trouble stems from the fact that the engine was designed to run at a maximum of 3600 rpm so going up from there creates a lot of shear forces on the area from imbalance and the loads from the cam and the flexing eventually leads to failure. a beefed up block and side cover and more gasket surface in the area would help a bunch.
 
The material in the block is not that much of a problem. The trouble stems from the fact that the engine was designed to run at a maximum of 3600 rpm so going up from there creates a lot of shear forces on the area from imbalance and the loads from the cam and the flexing eventually leads to failure. a beefed up block and side cover and more gasket surface in the area would help a bunch.

No, it has been very clearly explained that taking a Chinese copy of a utility motor and turning it into a racing motor is not a problem of any sort. You haven't been paying attention! LOL
 
No, it has been very clearly explained that taking a Chinese copy of a utility motor and turning it into a racing motoris not a problem of any sort. You haven't been paying attention! LOL

Can you cite the post that it was explained in. I think it has been said since day one that these engines have a very high vibration factor.
 
There are 636, all from you!

So it should be easy for you to pick out one.

That's like me saying there are 10,000 posts from a grown man whining and acting like a child with his comments, all over a engine he doesn't even run. Biggest difference is I can actually find one.
 
any single cylinder engine, regardless of use, will have suffer from high vibrations. without a balance shaft or some way to dampen the shaking, you're gonna have them. the only time that the vibrations are equalled out is when your on the track...and then the vibrations from the surface being transmitted to my butt cancels the vibrations coming from the engine.

and when it comes to the engines.....it's common knowledge that the clone, and any of it's variants, come from overseas. thats a given, specially when the "original" is named "honda". every engine that is being used in racing today (i'm speaking about kart racing) can have it's parts, or thier design, traced back to overseas designers.

this isn't a LO206 debate, so lets keep with the thread!! have you have any issues with the side cover bolt holes breaking? if you haven't, lucky you....if you have, what did you do to fix or alleviate the problem?
 
So it should be easy for you to pick out one. That's like me saying there are 10,000 posts from a grown man whining and acting like a child with his comments, all over a engine he doesn't even run. Biggest difference is I can actually find one.

I know you're not talking about me because on 6/10 I posted this: "Bryan, there's a distinct difference between "complaining, nagging, & whining" and laughing! For the record, I'm not in the "complaining, nagging, & whining" group." I may have added a little sarcasm but definitely no whining.
 
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