so many differences but no stage the same

[Izzy bizzy]

hi all im izzy and i am new to the forum and hope over time i can be as much help to any and all as im sure u all can be to me . i am not new to the kart building scene and have never raced . i buy old race karts chassis and parts and do complete restoration on them and a few miini bikes here and there . what i am new to is the OHV Predator engines . i feel like i have looked and compared just about everyones stage kits for the Hemi 212 cc model and it has left me kinda stumped so i came here to see if any others had found the same thing of if it is just me . from what i have found that no 2 or any combination of suppliers actually sell the same things in these kits . i guess what im seeing is that a stage one performance kit mainly consists of a free flow filter in several different shapes and angled fitments , a billet adapter for the carb u are using , a small bent metal bracket to hole the choke lever in place , longer bolts to accomodate the thickness of said adapter and 1 to 2 selections of main jets for the factory carb . its basically the same for stages 2 thru 4 but for the most part the kits seem to have almost randomized mix of parts . i just recently decided that id try a Predator 212 cc Hemi engine on a kart that i have about 4 months in to right now . i wont name the dealer but the stage 3 kit they had advertised included about 70% of what i needed to build a mildly competitive engine billet flywheel and connecting rod , race cam , billet rod bearings , and thinner head gasket . the items needed to make the stage 3 kit close to bullet proof were not there however . it didnt include the 32lb valve spring kit which would be necessary to avoid valve float as the kit recomends complete removal of the governer nor did it include an upgraded push rod set . my main question i guess is why are there so many different stage 1 stage 2 stage 3 or stage 4 kits that are so cotton picking different ? some one please enlighten me !

 

[mike97760]

The whole 'kit' deal isnt the way most of us go. In my opinion whoever began selling kits was a marketing genius who recognize there are inexperience, but interested, guys out there who really dont know what they need, not want. Guessing the majority of the kits are going into minibikes. Across the board a lot of the parts included are more inexpensive parts that probably didnt sell well outside of the kit package. The kit deal took off, there was a willing market of newbies who dove in and the stuff sells well. Most of the kart racer guys who assemble their own stuff have learned what they want this engine to do, how many rpms they can afford to run it and look at a bigger picture of head modifications, exhaust, rockers and pushrod lengths, cams and carbs, timing adjustments to make all work best together. Only hands on experience and sometimes trial and error will get you there. When you order parts, first tell the seller what you hope to accomplish and ask questions if you dont understand. Ordering blindly online doesnt help much in that department. Your vague 'race cam' doesnt tell us much about what you have and you didnt tell us what you want to have when it gets finished. Lots of us will help if you fill in the blanks.

 

[Landon Engine Building]

my main question i guess is why are there so many different stage 1 stage 2 stage 3 or stage 4 kits that are so cotton picking different ? some one please enlighten me !

Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
That is the main reason reason behind the different stage kits. The reason different suppliers put their own spin on the kits, is likely because they've found their kit to be a good compromise between power and cost, among other reasons. I am of the opinion that NR Racing has the best stage kits, they are priced very fair for what you get. Like mentioned above most builders / racers don't buy stage kits, instead they buy their parts separately and really customize their engines to perform how they want. I opted for a mix of the two, I originally bought a stage 3 kit, but have been building off of it for the last 6 months. Hope that answers any questions.

 

[Izzy bizzy]

thanks man i have been toying with the idea of first lightening up the entire rotating assembly . lighter is better all the way around ive been told for years so im already looking at bilit flywheel , bilit connecting rod , wiesco piston (havent decided on flat or dished yet) but other than the cam that would handle the internals . ombwarehouse has what was their stage 3 kit but is now their governor delete kit and it takes care of the flywheel and connecting rod issue and coomes with a new rod bearing , the wiseco piston/wrist pin they have to gives a choice of low comp or high comp . i have already shaved 2 stock headgasket thicknesses off the head so im considering the dished piston as i still have to order the stainless steel valve and retainer and spring conversion so bigger valves will have plenty of room and then tie all that together with stainless steel lifters and some chromoly cut to fit push rods . ive gathered a great deal of info here around the tracks in my area and from folks who ive built or restored karts for , but this will be my first venture into engine building from the bare block out so im gonna kinda take it easy this time at least so i have money to build another incase things go BOOM with the first . hahahahaha !

 

[Izzy bizzy]

The whole 'kit' deal isnt the way most of us go. In my opinion whoever began selling kits was a marketing genius who recognize there are inexperience, but interested, guys out there who really dont know what they need, not want. Guessing the majority of the kits are going into minibikes. Across the board a lot of the parts included are more inexpensive parts that probably didnt sell well outside of the kit package. The kit deal took off, there was a willing market of newbies who dove in and the stuff sells well. Most of the kart racer guys who assemble their own stuff have learned what they want this engine to do, how many rpms they can afford to run it and look at a bigger picture of head modifications, exhaust, rockers and pushrod lengths, cams and carbs, timing adjustments to make all work best together. Only hands on experience and sometimes trial and error will get you there. When you order parts, first tell the seller what you hope to accomplish and ask questions if you dont understand. Ordering blindly online doesnt help much in that department. Your vague 'race cam' doesnt tell us much about what you have and you didnt tell us what you want to have when it gets finished. Lots of us will help if you fill in the blanks.

thanksfor the reply and u are mostly right on that . i am still getting things worked out for this kart resto and this is the first time ive went from the block up with a build . i guess u could say im trying to add a new feature to my kart restorations gig . ive been shop talking and forum reading for close to a year now but still the stage kits get past me . i guess its my "it fits one way and one way only " thinking . i mean if a stage 1 kit is gonna be jetts , freeflow filter , filter adapter , and a choke hold down tab , and lets say maybe a fuel pump , that means u increasing fuel and air thats what starts the HP flow so in my head gettting rid of that efficently would be the stage 2 kit and it would consist of header pipe , support bracket , gaskets , and heavier valve springs . now you got fuel and air and ur getting rid of it lets delete the govnor and make it all lighter stage 3 bilit flywheel , bilit connecting rod , lighter piston , and heavier valve springs . all this is gonna get it lighter and let it turn faster . stage 5 would have options like ported and polishged head or cast surface , stock valve sizes and stock retainers or stainless steel @ stock sizes with stock retainers , or stainless steel over sized valves with bilit retainers and split keepers and have a few options on cam specs and push rod and lifter types . yes this is all in the perfect world in my head , but if we all had the world as it is in our head .........well we would almost be there now for some of us any way . lol ! just makes no sence that there is not a standardized stageing considering it is directed at the novice to experienced user and not the expert engine builder . they have the engine builder prepared parts kits for that ! hahahahaha

 

[mike97760]

The expert engine builders you refer to have become good by years of trial and error and by doing research. The know what has worked for them and know which parts wont benefit the build they are doing. And every one of them has learned how to tweak these parts for the most advantage. A kit would limit their abilities. The things that make their engines strong dont come in a box.

 

[XXX#40]

thanksfor the reply and u are mostly right on that . i am still getting things worked out for this kart resto and this is the first time ive went from the block up with a build . i guess u could say im trying to add a new feature to my kart restorations gig . ive been shop talking and forum reading for close to a year now but still the stage kits get past me . i guess its my "it fits one way and one way only " thinking . i mean if a stage 1 kit is gonna be jetts , freeflow filter , filter adapter , and a choke hold down tab , and lets say maybe a fuel pump , that means u increasing fuel and air thats what starts the HP flow so in my head gettting rid of that efficently would be the stage 2 kit and it would consist of header pipe , support bracket , gaskets , and heavier valve springs . now you got fuel and air and ur getting rid of it lets delete the govnor and make it all lighter stage 3 bilit flywheel , bilit connecting rod , lighter piston , and heavier valve springs . all this is gonna get it lighter and let it turn faster . stage 5 would have options like ported and polishged head or cast surface , stock valve sizes and stock retainers or stainless steel @ stock sizes with stock retainers , or stainless steel over sized valves with bilit retainers and split keepers and have a few options on cam specs and push rod and lifter types . yes this is all in the perfect world in my head , but if we all had the world as it is in our head .........well we would almost be there now for some of us any way . lol ! just makes no sence that there is not a standardized stageing considering it is directed at the novice to experienced user and not the expert engine builder . they have the engine builder prepared parts kits for that ! hahahahaha

We are bound by rules, some are not.
That's why there is many kits.
If I was going to build an open, the clone wouldn't be my choice

 

[Izzy bizzy]

The expert engine builders you refer to have become good by years of trial and error and by doing research. The know what has worked for them and know which parts wont benefit the build they are doing. And every one of them has learned how to tweak these parts for the most advantage. A kit would limit their abilities. The things that make their engines strong dont come in a box.

well considering I'm far from an expert and am not seeking that . I'm looking at fast turn around , and best results for money spent . if I was not on a small ⁿ and had complete freedoms I'd be building a 2 cycle shifter kart or looking for something more along the lines of the McColough R-1 . the qiestion was also kinda a twinge of sarcasm too . I'm not looking to compete , or race , this is basically going to be the show piece for my business . it needs to sound good and be fast enough to get me up and down my 140 yard concrete drivewayj

 

[XXX#40]

well considering I'm far from an expert and am not seeking that . I'm looking at fast turn around , and best results for money spent . if I was not on a small ⁿ and had complete freedoms I'd be building a 2 cycle shifter kart or looking for something more along the lines of the McColough R-1 . the qiestion was also kinda a twinge of sarcasm too . I'm not looking to compete , or race , this is basically going to be the show piece for my business . it needs to sound good and be fast enough to get me up and down my 140 yard concrete drivewayj

Like I said, some kits are based on us stock racers that are bound by engine rules that we have to fall into, and build our own engines,, some kits are built for Mod/Open guys that have a different set of rules, then theres some kits for enthusiasts.
The "complete freedom" guys are running 450 atv engines, 2 stroke dirt bike engines etc..
You are on a site that is 98% racers, and 95% Dirt oval racers

 

[Izzy bizzy]

Really like to thank u all for the input and the shared knowledge . Here we are months later and $ later and to be honest as I can , I'm quite satisfied with the outcome across the board . Here is a couple of pics to look at . I do have a KT 100 and plans to ditch the predator soon as money allows , but again thanks guys for sharing ur experiences with me . The green chassis is where we started . It was a $75 Facebook marketplace steal .