Box Stock

Somebody had to do it. Ghost parts specs and engine profile.

rebsfan4

rebsfan4

Member
Parts and component findings for the Predator Ghost 212cc engine I have.

The engine was tore down just as if a 100% complete technical inspection was done. All parts were measured and weighed. All measurable timing events of the cam and valves were measured as well. This was done because I would like to start a data base on the parts we are going to see in these engines. And yes, we are going to see them. With the current Predator 212cc engine in use today, all across the country, in karting, we have seen that these engines vary so much from one to the other. This has made it very difficult for tech officials to find a common ground by which to have a common set of standards. Yes, it would be so simple to just run them straight out of the box. Reality is, that's not happening everywhere. Because of the vast inconsistencies it has caused a lot of variations in the rule sets from one track to another and from one region to the next. This creates large problems with racers not being able to travel to a variety of different tracks, without having multiple engines "built" to multiple different standards. My hope here is to find others, be it engine builders or DIY guys who go through their engines and spec them out before actually blueprinting them. If we can start now and form a data base of numbers, it should help lessen the learning curve of what we've went through with the current Predator 212 engine that's currently in use all over America.

As we know, kart racers, dirt kart racers in particular, ARE going to gravitate toward this engine. There will be resistance, as with every engine that comes about, but for those of us who've been around karting for 40 years, we already know what's about to happen. If you like it, good. If you don't, that's ok as well. I'm NOT looking for criticism of the engine. I'm not looking for arguments. I'm simply wanting to share what technical information I have gathered off the engine I have in my possession. I'm simply hoping to collect data from those willing to share what they find. PARTICULARLY from tech officials. If we wish to discuss things that would help bring consistency to the table, for this engine, please lets do so. By that I mean things that could help alleviate the pains in the tech room.

Things such as consistent crank strokes and centerlines. With consistent strokes, the deck heights could be managed for better in the hole measurements. Consistent cam grinds. Hardened cam lobes, to prolong cam wear. The list could go on but you all get the point. Lets discuss this AS IF we were talking to Harbor Freight and not arguing amongst ourselves based on different ideals. We all know what would help, so lets all try to get on the same page here before it gets so far gone that it's a lost cause. So without boring you all any more I will share with you all, the information I've gathered. If someone sees something I missed (because I'm pretty sure I did) please say so and I'll edit it into the post.

CAM BASIC PROFILE
Intake duration @ .050" lift = 212
Intake duration @ .200" lift = 98.5*
Intake centerline of 104*
Intake Max Lift .254"
Exhaust duration @ .050" lift = 212.5*
Exhaust duration @ .200" lift = 104*
Exhaust centerline of 110*
Exhaust Max Lift .255"

COMPLETE CAM PROFILE BY LO206 STANDARD
Intake opening
.006----58* BTDC
.020----19.5* BTDC
.050----0 TDC
.100----17.5* ATDC
.150----34.5* ATDC
.200----55* ATDC
.225----68.5* ATDC
Max Lift .254"
Intake Closing
.225----38.5* BBDC
.200----26* BBDC
.175----15.5* BBDC
.150----6* BBDC
.100----11* ABDC
.050----28* ABDC
.020----46* ABDC
.006----83.5* ABDC

Exhaust opening
.006----96* BBDC
.020----58* BBDC
.050---- 38* BBDC
.100----20.5* BBDC
.150----4* BBDC
.200----16.5* ABDC
.225----30* ABDC
Max Lift .255"
Exhaust Closing
.225----72* BTDC
.200----59* BTDC
.175----48.5* BTDC
.150----39* BTDC
.100----22.5* BTDC
.050----5* BTDC
.020----12.5* ATDC
.006----52.5* ATDC


HEAD
JT94 Head
Head thickness 2.9125"
Combustion Chamber Depth .488"
Intake Seat Diameter .972" (Single 45* Angle)
Exhaust Seat Diameter .849" (Single 45* Angle)
Intake Port Horizontal Opening .906"
Intake Port Vertical Opening .916"
Intake Bowl Depth to lowest point of recessed valve guide .1.197
Exhaust Port Horizontal Opening .945"
Exhaust Port Vertical Opening .941"
Head gasket thickness .051 (Taken From inside Cylinder Hole area)

INTAKE VALVE TRAIN COMPONENTS
Intake Valve Head Diameter 27.06 MM (1.065")
Intake Valve Length 3.016"
Intake Valve Stem Diameter 5.5 MM
Intake Valve Weight 27.48 Grams
Aprox Intake Valve Margin .026"
Intake Valve Seal Flange Thickness .023"
Intake Rocker Arm Length 2.646"
Intake Rocker Arm Weight 37.72 Grams
Intake Pushrod Length 5.785"
Intake Pushrod Weight 14.69 Grams
Intake Pushrod Diameter .160"
Intake Lifter Head Diameter .928"
Intake Lifter Length 1.436"
Intake Lifter Weight 20.15 Grams

EXHAUST VALVE TRAIN COMPONENTS
Exhaust Valve Head Diameter 24.07 MM (.948")
Exhaust Valve Length 3.017"
Exhaust Valve Stem Diameter 5.4 MM
Exhaust Valve Weight 26.45 Grams
Aprox Exhaust Valve Margin .045"
No exhaust Valve Seal
Exhaust Rocker Arm length 2.6465"
Exhaust Rocker Arm Weight 37.43 Grams
Exhaust Pushrod Length 5.782"
Exhaust Pushrod Weight 14.53 Grams
Exhaust Pushrod Diameter .160"
Exhaust Lifter Head Diameter .928"
Exhaust Lifter Length 1.437"
Exhaust Lifter Weight 20.07 Grams

INTAKE VALVE SPRING AND COMPONENTS
Intake Valve Spring Length 1.210"
Intake Valve Spring Wire Diameter .098"
Intake Valve Spring O.D. .841"
Intake Valve Spring I.D. .640-.645 (Measured at each end)
Intake Valve Spring Retainer Flange Thickness .061"
Intake Valve Spring Retainer Weight 6.73 Grams
Intake Lash Cap Diameter .3135"
Intake Lash Cap Thickness .139"
Intake Lash Cap Weight 1.04 Grams

EXHAUST VALVE SPRING AND COMPONENTS
Exhaust Valve Spring Length 1.196"
Exhaust Valve Spring Wire Diameter .0985"
Exhaust Valve Spring O.D. .843"
Exhaust Valve Spring I.D. .640 - .646 (Measured at each end)
Exhaust Valve Spring Retainer Flange Thickness .0605 - .0615 (.010 from one side to the other)
Exhaust Valve Spring Retainer Weight 6.72 Grams
Exhaust Lash Cap Diameter .3135"
Exhaust Lash Cap Thickness .138"
Exhaust Lash Cap Weight 1.03 Grams

BORE 69.99 MM (2.755")
STROKE 2.171" (Stock stroke says 2.165")
CRANKSHAFT JOURNAL 1.79"
CAM LOBE BASE CIRCLE
Intake .867"
Exhaust .868"

PISTON ASSEMBLY
Piston assembly weight with rings 169.70 Grams
Piston Diameter @ bottom of piston skirt 2.755" (This don't seem like it should right but I measured it repeatedly)
Piston Length 1.8335"
Top of wrist pin hole to the top of the piston .575"
Wrist Pin Length 2.1475"
Outside Diameter of Wrist Pin .716"
Inside Diameter of wrist pin .552"
Wrist Pin Weight 44.37 Grams
Connecting Rod Weight 118.26 Grams
Top of crank journal rod hole to bottom of wrist pin hole in rod 2.362"

CARBURATOR (PZ22)
Intake Manifold Length 2.194"
Intake Manifold Flange Thickness .160
Intake Manifold I.D. @ Head Gasket Surface .08635"
Intake Manifold I.D @ Carb Gasket Surface .08635"
Venturi Horizontal Measurement @ Center of Carb Just Before Slide Area Taken From AirHorn Side .609"
Venturi Vertical Measurement Taken Just Before Slide Area From Manifold Mounting Side .765"
Venturi Horizontal Measurement Taken In Bottom Half Of Venturi Opening From Manifold Mounting Side .6125"
Vertical I.D. Measurement Of Air horn @ Transition Into Venturi 1.121"
Horizontal I.D. Measurement Of Air horn @ Transition Into Venturi 1.117"
Horizontal I.D. Of 1st Step On Manifold Side Of Carb .861"
Vertical I.D Of 1st Step On Manifold Side Of carb .861"
Idle Jet 42 (.0165")
Small Holes In Idle Jet .033"
Main Jet 85 ( .033")
Main Nozzle .102"
Emulsion Tube Length 1.046"
Emulsion Tube Diameter .196"
Emulsion Tube Pass Through Hole .111"
Small Holes In Emulsion Tube .021"
Air Pick Off Hole .097"
Venturi Idle Air Hole .109"
Venturi Idle Fuel Hole .039"
Carb Slide Cutaway .081"

Phenolic Spacer Thickness Measured @ Front And Back Mating Surfaces .294-.296

Edit to add to post.......
The valve stem tips have been reduced to 5 MM, like a non hemi. 5mm retainers will be needed.
 
Last edited:
rebsfan4 said:
Parts and component findings for the Predator Ghost 212cc engine I have.

The engine was tore down just as if a 100% complete technical inspection was done. All parts were measured and weighed. All measurable timing events of the cam and valves were measured as well. This was done because I would like to start a data base on the parts we are going to see in these engines. And yes, we are going to see them. With the current Predator 212cc engine in use today, all across the country, in karting, we have seen that these engines vary so much from one to the other. This has made it very difficult for tech officials to find a common ground by which to have a common set of standards. Yes, it would be so simple to just run them straight out of the box. Reality is, that's not happening everywhere. Because of the vast inconsistencies it has caused a lot of variations in the rule sets from one track to another and from one region to the next. This creates large problems with racers not being able to travel to a variety of different tracks, without having multiple engines "built" to multiple different standards. My hope here is to find others, be it engine builders or DIY guys who go through their engines and spec them out before actually blueprinting them. If we can start now and form a data base of numbers, it should help lessen the learning curve of what we've went through with the current Predator 212 engine that's currently in use all over America.

As we know, kart racers, dirt kart racers in particular, ARE going to gravitate toward this engine. There will be resistance, as with every engine that comes about, but for those of us who've been around karting for 40 years, we already know what's about to happen. If you like it, good. If you don't, that's ok as well. I'm NOT looking for criticism of the engine. I'm not looking for arguments. I'm simply wanting to share what technical information I have gathered off the engine I have in my possession. I'm simply hoping to collect data from those willing to share what they find. PARTICULARLY from tech officials. If we wish to discuss things that would help bring consistency to the table, for this engine, please lets do so. By that I mean things that could help alleviate the pains in the tech room.

Things such as consistent crank strokes and centerlines. With consistent strokes, the deck heights could be managed for better in the hole measurements. Consistent cam grinds. Hardened cam lobes, to prolong cam wear. The list could go on but you all get the point. Lets discuss this AS IF we were talking to Harbor Freight and not arguing amongst ourselves based on different ideals. We all know what would help, so lets all try to get on the same page here before it gets so far gone that it's a lost cause. So without boring you all any more I will share with you all, the information I've gathered. If someone sees something I missed (because I'm pretty sure I did) please say so and I'll edit it into the post.

CAM BASIC PROFILE
Intake duration @ .050" lift = 212
Intake duration @ .200" lift = 98.5*
Intake centerline of 104*
Intake Max Lift .254"
Exhaust duration @ .050" lift = 212.5*
Exhaust duration @ .200" lift = 104*
Exhaust centerline of 110*
Exhaust Max Lift .255"

COMPLETE CAM PROFILE BY LO206 STANDARD
Intake opening
.006----58* BTDC
.020----19.5* BTDC
.050----0 TDC
.100----17.5* ATDC
.150----34.5* ATDC
.200----55* ATDC
.225----68.5* ATDC
Max Lift .254"
Intake Closing
.225----38.5* BBDC
.200----26* BBDC
.175----15.5* BBDC
.150----6* BBDC
.100----11* ABDC
.050----28* ABDC
.020----46* ABDC
.006----83.5* ABDC

Exhaust opening
.006----96* BBDC
.020----58* BBDC
.050---- 38* BBDC
.100----20.5* BBDC
.150----4* BBDC
.200----16.5* ABDC
.225----30* ABDC
Max Lift .255"
Exhaust Closing
.225----72* BTDC
.200----59* BTDC
.175----48.5* BTDC
.150----39* BTDC
.100----22.5* BTDC
.050----5* BTDC
.020----12.5* ATDC
.006----52.5* ATDC


HEAD
JT94 Head
Head thickness 2.9125"
Combustion Chamber Depth .488"
Intake Seat Diameter .972" (Single 45* Angle)
Exhaust Seat Diameter .849" (Single 45* Angle)
Intake Port Horizontal Opening .906"
Intake Port Vertical Opening .916"
Intake Bowl Depth to lowest point of recessed valve guide .1.197
Exhaust Port Horizontal Opening .945"
Exhaust Port Vertical Opening .941"
Head gasket thickness .051 (Taken From inside Cylinder Hole area)

INTAKE VALVE TRAIN COMPONENTS
Intake Valve Head Diameter 27.06 MM (1.065")
Intake Valve Length 3.016"
Intake Valve Stem Diameter 5.5 MM
Intake Valve Weight 27.48 Grams
Aprox Intake Valve Margin .026"
Intake Valve Seal Flange Thickness .023"
Intake Rocker Arm Length 2.646"
Intake Rocker Arm Weight 37.72 Grams
Intake Pushrod Length 5.785"
Intake Pushrod Weight 14.69 Grams
Intake Pushrod Diameter .160"
Intake Lifter Head Diameter .928"
Intake Lifter Length 1.436"
Intake Lifter Weight 20.15 Grams

EXHAUST VALVE TRAIN COMPONENTS
Exhaust Valve Head Diameter 24.07 MM (.948")
Exhaust Valve Length 3.017"
Exhaust Valve Stem Diameter 5.4 MM
Exhaust Valve Weight 26.45 Grams
Aprox Exhaust Valve Margin .045"
No exhaust Valve Seal
Exhaust Rocker Arm length 2.6465"
Exhaust Rocker Arm Weight 37.43 Grams
Exhaust Pushrod Length 5.782"
Exhaust Pushrod Weight 14.53 Grams
Exhaust Pushrod Diameter .160"
Exhaust Lifter Head Diameter .928"
Exhaust Lifter Length 1.437"
Exhaust Lifter Weight 20.07 Grams

INTAKE VALVE SPRING AND COMPONENTS
Intake Valve Spring Length 1.210"
Intake Valve Spring Wire Diameter .098"
Intake Valve Spring O.D. .841"
Intake Valve Spring I.D. .640-.645 (Measured at each end)
Intake Valve Spring Retainer Flange Thickness .061"
Intake Valve Spring Retainer Weight 6.73 Grams
Intake Lash Cap Diameter .3135"
Intake Lash Cap Thickness .139"
Intake Lash Cap Weight 1.04 Grams

EXHAUST VALVE SPRING AND COMPONENTS
Exhaust Valve Spring Length 1.196"
Exhaust Valve Spring Wire Diameter .0985"
Exhaust Valve Spring O.D. .843"
Exhaust Valve Spring I.D. .640 - .646 (Measured at each end)
Exhaust Valve Spring Retainer Flange Thickness .0605 - .0615 (.010 from one side to the other)
Exhaust Valve Spring Retainer Weight 6.72 Grams
Exhaust Lash Cap Diameter .3135"
Exhaust Lash Cap Thickness .138"
Exhaust Lash Cap Weight 1.03 Grams

BORE 69.99 MM (2.755")
STROKE 2.171" (Stock stroke says 2.165")
CRANKSHAFT JOURNAL 1.79"
CAM LOBE BASE CIRCLE
Intake .867"
Exhaust .868"

PISTON ASSYMBLY
Piston assembly weight with rings 169.70 Grams
Piston Diameter @ bottom of piston skirt 2.755" (This don't seem like it should right but I measured it repeatedly)
Piston Length 1.8335"
Top of wrist pin hole to the top of the piston .575"
Wrist Pin Length 2.1475"
Outside Diameter of Wrist Pin .716"
Inside Diameter of wrist pin .552"
Wrist Pin Weight 44.37 Grams
Connecting Rod Weight 118.26 Grams
Top of crank journal rod hole to bottom of wrist pin hole in rod 2.362"

CARBURATOR (PZ22)
Intake Manifold Length 2.194"
Intake Manifold Flange Thickness .160
Intake Manifold I.D. @ Head Gasket Surface .08635"
Intake Manifold I.D @ Carb Gasket Surface .08635"
Venturi Horizontal Measurement @ Center of Carb Just Before Slide Area Taken From AirHorn Side .609"
Venturi Vertical Measurement Taken Just Before Slide Area From Manifold Mounting Side .765"
Venturi Horizontal Measurement Taken In Bottom Half Of Venturi Opening From Manifold Mounting Side .6125"
Vertical I.D. Measurement Of Air horn @ Transition Into Venturi 1.121"
Horizontal I.D. Measurement Of Air horn @ Transition Into Venturi 1.117"
Horizontal I.D. Of 1st Step On Manifold Side Of Carb .861"
Vertical I.D Of 1st Step On Manifold Side Of carb .861"
Idle Jet 42 (.0165")
Small Holes In Idle Jet .033"
Main Jet 85 ( .033")
Main Nozzle .102"
Emulsion Tube Length 1.046"
Emulsion Tube Diameter .196"
Emulsion Tube Pass Through Hole .111"
Small Holes In Emulsion Tube .021"
Air Pick Off Hole .097"
Venturi Idle Air Hole .109"
Venturi Idle Fuel Hole .039"
Carb Slide Cutaway .081"

Phenolic Spacer Thickness Measured @ Front And Back Mating Surfaces .294-.296
Click to expand...
Good job .
 
rebsfan4 said:
The list could go on but you all get the point. Lets discuss this AS IF we were talking to Harbor Freight and not arguing amongst ourselves based on different ideals. We all know what would help, so lets all try to get on the same page here before it gets so far gone that it's a lost cause.
Click to expand...
One and only one head casting.......... As Briggs already did with the LO 206. You should be applauded for the effort you put forth. You mentioned consistency several times and many, many Ghosts will need to be measured to establish a rule set. This effort should have been made with the clone.
 
Chipg56 said:
One and only one head casting.......... As Briggs already did with the LO 206. You should be applauded for the effort you put forth. You mentioned consistency several times and many, many Ghosts will need to be measured to establish a rule set. This effort should have been made with the clone.
Click to expand...
James McMahon (RadialFin) is going to create a Google form, with all the measurable items I have listed, so people can spec out their engines, if they so choose, and have a way to share the info for comparisons.
 
Chipg56 said:
One and only one head casting.......... As Briggs already did with the LO 206. You should be applauded for the effort you put forth. You mentioned consistency several times and many, many Ghosts will need to be measured to establish a rule set. This effort should have been made with the clone.
Click to expand...
It was done with the clone. China continued to make changes and the clone had to follow the yellow brick road. If someone doesn’t reach out to the manufacturer of the ghost the same thing will happen.
 
rebsfan4 said:
Gary Costanza AKA Sneaks just finished up a stock, out of the box dyno comparison of the Ghost and Lo206......

Ghost came in at 12.07 hp @ 4800 with 13.79 ft lb @ 4400

Lo206came in a 11hp @ 5000
He didn't list the torque values.
Click to expand...
Impressive to say the least for a non-blueprinted China engine! So these things are ~12hp out of the box, with blueprinted and tuning I'd assume we could see 15hp easily.
 
I wonder if the dyno comparison was made with the optional long intake manifold on the ghost?
I see "tuning" as taking what's there stock - out of the box - and adjusting for best performance. Adjust ignition timing, cam timing, carburetor jetting, valve settings. I have never seen that net 25% increase in power. Now, to hit a 25% gain, we are right back to "blueprinting" and "part massaging" and "cherry picking" parts. Also, how do you "blueprint" an engine when there are no factory specs to go by?
I applaud rebsfan4 for making the effort to put in print what he witnessed with one engine. But I also agree with DynoDon, the engine will suffer from the "flavor of the month" syndrome with castings, specs and part numbers. First thing that will change will be the rod. Then the flywheel. See where this is going? I hope it doesn't suffer from"power tweeks" and ruin the idea.
 
laser3kw said:
I wonder if the dyno comparison was made with the optional long intake manifold on the ghost?
I see "tuning" as taking what's there stock - out of the box - and adjusting for best performance. Adjust ignition timing, cam timing, carburetor jetting, valve settings. I have never seen that net 25% increase in power. Now, to hit a 25% gain, we are right back to "blueprinting" and "part massaging" and "cherry picking" parts. Also, how do you "blueprint" an engine when there are no factory specs to go by?
I applaud rebsfan4 for making the effort to put in print what he witnessed with one engine. But I also agree with DynoDon, the engine will suffer from the "flavor of the month" syndrome with castings, specs and part numbers. First thing that will change will be the rod. Then the flywheel. See where this is going? I hope it doesn't suffer from"power tweeks" and ruin the idea.
Click to expand...
The dyno test were done straight out of the box, with the stock manifold that comes on it. As far as Gary tuning, it's over with now. He's already modifying it. He's done done a full port and polish on the intake and put a 29mm stainless valve in it.

There has been another builder who's done some things, by way of tuning. Of course his dyno is his dyno and we all know they vary. With that said...

Straight out of the box he got 12.4 hp.
Stock jets but adjusting valves he got 12.7 hp
After Lash setting and changing jets he got 13.07 hp.
I've ask him to work on carb needle position next.

As far as "tuning" goes, it's just my personal opinion, but NOTHING should be allowed other than jetting and/or needle position on the slide. I wouldn't let an engine builder touch it. AT ALL!!

I'm going to purchase two more engines to compare myself. I already have others willing to share the info they get. We already have them showing up at local tracks down here. Just that quick. What we all knew was going to happen IS already happening.

As far as reaching out to the manufacturer, it's already been done. And that's as far as that can be elaborated on.
 
Last edited:
Just to clarify the conversation about the Dyno. I have a friend in New York who tells me his engines are showing over 17 hp in a clone. He knows that that is not correct. However the Dyno is only used for the purpose of seeing improvements. Knowing that the hemi predator on my Dino is only making a little under 9 hp out of the box when super tuned I find it difficult to believe that there’s a difference of 3 hp on the ghost engine by just simply adding that carburetor. I could be wrong I’ve been wrong before
 
DynoDon said:
Just to clarify the conversation about the Dyno. I have a friend in New York who tells me his engines are showing over 17 hp in a clone. He knows that that is not correct. However the Dyno is only used for the purpose of seeing improvements. Knowing that the hemi predator on my Dino is only making a little under 9 hp out of the box when super tuned I find it difficult to believe that there’s a difference of 3 hp on the ghost engine by just simply adding that carburetor. I could be wrong I’ve been wrong before
Click to expand...
Even Gary Costanza done a dyno comparison of the Ghost to the 206. Straight out of the box. It's more than just a carb. It's not the same engine.
 

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i messaged a Gary Costanza on face book he messaged back
Non hemi predator is 8.8 hp and 10.3 after its tuned
Lo206 is 11hp
AKRA legal clone 11-13 hp.
if he's getting 13 hp out of the ghost after doing a little tweaking and its legit??

say goodbye to your clone.
 
J'-remy said:
i messaged a Gary Costanza on face book he messaged back
Non hemi predator is 8.8 hp and 10.3 after its tuned
Lo206 is 11hp
AKRA legal clone 11-13 hp.
if he's getting 13 hp out of the ghost after doing a little tweaking and its legit??

say goodbye to your clone.
Click to expand...
Kind of just jumping into this one, but is said tweaking to the Predator with the stock Predator carb? If so, the "say goodbye to your clone" thing is like comparing apples to hand grenades. Just because they look similar doesn't make them the same. I'd like to see the same carb and header used on both, "tweaked" straight out of the box before I'd make any assumption on standard Predators being ditched for the Ghost.
 
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