Box Stock

Somebody had to do it. Ghost parts specs and engine profile.

Why
Reign-Check said:
Kind of just jumping into this one, but is said tweaking to the Predator with the stock Predator carb? If so, the "say goodbye to your clone" thing is like comparing apples to hand grenades. Just because they look similar doesn't make them the same. I'd like to see the same carb and header used on both, "tweaked" straight out of the box before I'd make any assumption on standard Predators being ditched for the Ghost.
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Why? They're not the same engine. Different head. Different cams. Different springs. Different coils. Different carbs. Different Exhaust. Meant for completely different racing. Actually only one is meant for racing.
 
"J'-remy said:
i messaged a Gary Costanza on face book he messaged back
Non hemi predator is 8.8 hp and 10.3 after its tuned
Lo206 is 11hp
AKRA legal clone 11-13 hp.
if he's getting 13 hp out of the ghost after doing a little tweaking and its legit??

say goodbye to your clone.
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Gary didn't get 13 hp out of the Ghost. He got 12.07 straight out of the box. He never tuned it for anything else. He went straight to doing what Gary loves to do, modifying it. The first thing he did was stick a 29mm ss valve in the intake. Effectively making it illegal for its intended use. So any hp numbers from that point on is just for fun and essentially not a Ghost engine.
Blaise got 13 hp After nothing but tuning the carb and setting the Lash better than it comes from the factory. They have the Lash set on the conservative side.

I've posted three dyno results from three different people so far. They're all virtually identical to one anther straight our of the box.
 
DynoDon said:
Just to clarify the conversation about the Dyno. I have a friend in New York who tells me his engines are showing over 17 hp in a clone. He knows that that is not correct. However the Dyno is only used for the purpose of seeing improvements. Knowing that the hemi predator on my Dino is only making a little under 9 hp out of the box when super tuned I find it difficult to believe that there’s a difference of 3 hp on the ghost engine by just simply adding that carburetor. I could be wrong I’ve been wrong before
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Doesnt the cam have more lift too?
 
rebsfan4 said:
Why
Why? They're not the same engine. Different head. Different cams. Different springs. Different coils. Different carbs. Different Exhaust. Meant for completely different racing. Actually only one is meant for racing.
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Why? Because my motors already smoke LO206's, but they're not stock by any means. The point of me posting that was to see a closer comparison. Carbs and headers, which the Ghost doesn't come with a header, are easy to swap from one to another. What's inside we know is different, so let's see what the performance difference is with all else being equal.
 
Reign-Check said:
Why? Because my motors already smoke LO206's, but they're not stock by any means. The point of me posting that was to see a closer comparison. Carbs and headers, which the Ghost doesn't come with a header, are easy to swap from one to another. What's inside we know is different, so let's see what the performance difference is with all else being equal.
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Irrelevant to the topic of the thread. But to your point of comparison, the Ghost was designed to be used just as the lo206. That's the only comparison that's needed. The comparison you want to see has nothing to do with the topic here. Do you have data you'd like to add to thread?
 
J'-remy said:
this is a no brainer a $300 motor from harbor freight that makes close to the same power as a $1200-1700 motor. clone looks done for
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How you going to stop the ghost from being a clone? The clone has a rules set that many racers like due to the fact it can be teched for legality. The ghost has no rules. Start designing rules and watch that $300 engine end up at $1200. Some of you haven’t really sat down and thought this out in terms of long range. What makes you think that the same griping and complaining isn’t going to take place over the ghost as it is with the hemi. I can cheat that ghost up big time and there isn’t a tech in the country that can find it and PROVE I did it.
 
rebsfan4 said:
Irrelevant to the topic of the thread. But to your point of comparison, the Ghost was designed to be used just as the lo206. That's the only comparison that's needed. The comparison you want to see has nothing to do with the topic here. Do you have data you'd like to add to thread?
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How is my pointing out that when someone compared it to the clone that the comparison wasn't equal irrelevant? In reality any talk of or comparison to the 206 is irrelevant if you want to get technical about what belongs in here according to the original post. I do believe it's what's called an evolving conversation.
 
DynoDon said:
How you going to stop the ghost from being a clone? The clone has a rules set that many racers like due to the fact it can be teched for legality. The ghost has no rules. Start designing rules and watch that $300 engine end up at $1200. Some of you haven’t really sat down and thought this out in terms of long range. What makes you think that the same griping and complaining isn’t going to take place over the ghost as it is with the hemi. I can cheat that ghost up big time and there isn’t a tech in the country that can find it and PROVE I did it.
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i suspect the ghost will take off and will be doing equal to or better lap times than the 1400 clone. people will question the relevance of the clone and the clone racers will want more power to better the "OTB, Fun, Beginner class" and ask for a tech/blueprinted class for the ghost. and that's what i mean by 'say good buy to the clone' it will be irrelevant soon. i think it's headed to a single engine again but i think some importers of the clone and ducar 212s are going to try to fight it as much as possible
 
rebsfan4 said:
the Ghost was designed to be used just as the lo206
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No - onion to apple comparison.
The Ghost was not "designed" to for anything in particular. It is a massed produced, with little quality control clone engine with no gas tank, a slide carb (implemented and proven by Briggs 20 years ago) and no governor. It is intended for the recreational user for off road buggys, mini-bikes, drifter trikes, and will probably be used for kart racing.
The Briggs LO206 IS designed for kart racing. They are precision hand built (ghost is not), tight quality controlled, designed for a specific market class structure and sealed for assurance of factory inspection.
By July of this year, these no tech engines will be "race prepped" for $850 and by the end of the year $1200. And No qualifying tech procedures. Then the next batch that comes in will be different in some aspect. Wild west of the clone market.
 
laser3kw said:
No - onion to apple comparison.
The Ghost was not "designed" to for anything in particular. It is a massed produced, with little quality control clone engine with no gas tank, a slide carb (implemented and proven by Briggs 20 years ago) and no governor. It is intended for the recreational user for off road buggys, mini-bikes, drifter trikes, and will probably be used for kart racing.
The Briggs LO206 IS designed for kart racing. They are precision hand built (ghost is not), tight quality controlled, designed for a specific market class structure and sealed for assurance of factory inspection.
By July of this year, these no tech engines will be "race prepped" for $850 and by the end of the year $1200. And No qualifying tech procedures. Then the next batch that comes in will be different in some aspect. Wild west of the clone market.
Click to expand...
sorry but harbor freight spec'd that engine to be a kart racing engine says so right on the box and briggs designed that engine to replace the flathead due to epa regulations as a generator/ power washer small industrial engine. they are happy to paint it a different color give it a cool name and sell it to us for a profit just like harbor freight.
 
leave it to a bunch naysaying idiots to completely throw a thread off course.
 
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rebsfan4 said:
Parts and component findings for the Predator Ghost 212cc engine I have.

The engine was tore down just as if a 100% complete technical inspection was done. All parts were measured and weighed. All measurable timing events of the cam and valves were measured as well. This was done because I would like to start a data base on the parts we are going to see in these engines. And yes, we are going to see them. With the current Predator 212cc engine in use today, all across the country, in karting, we have seen that these engines vary so much from one to the other. This has made it very difficult for tech officials to find a common ground by which to have a common set of standards. Yes, it would be so simple to just run them straight out of the box. Reality is, that's not happening everywhere. Because of the vast inconsistencies it has caused a lot of variations in the rule sets from one track to another and from one region to the next. This creates large problems with racers not being able to travel to a variety of different tracks, without having multiple engines "built" to multiple different standards. My hope here is to find others, be it engine builders or DIY guys who go through their engines and spec them out before actually blueprinting them. If we can start now and form a data base of numbers, it should help lessen the learning curve of what we've went through with the current Predator 212 engine that's currently in use all over America.

As we know, kart racers, dirt kart racers in particular, ARE going to gravitate toward this engine. There will be resistance, as with every engine that comes about, but for those of us who've been around karting for 40 years, we already know what's about to happen. If you like it, good. If you don't, that's ok as well. I'm NOT looking for criticism of the engine. I'm not looking for arguments. I'm simply wanting to share what technical information I have gathered off the engine I have in my possession. I'm simply hoping to collect data from those willing to share what they find. PARTICULARLY from tech officials. If we wish to discuss things that would help bring consistency to the table, for this engine, please lets do so. By that I mean things that could help alleviate the pains in the tech room.

Things such as consistent crank strokes and centerlines. With consistent strokes, the deck heights could be managed for better in the hole measurements. Consistent cam grinds. Hardened cam lobes, to prolong cam wear. The list could go on but you all get the point. Lets discuss this AS IF we were talking to Harbor Freight and not arguing amongst ourselves based on different ideals. We all know what would help, so lets all try to get on the same page here before it gets so far gone that it's a lost cause. So without boring you all any more I will share with you all, the information I've gathered. If someone sees something I missed (because I'm pretty sure I did) please say so and I'll edit it into the post.

CAM BASIC PROFILE
Intake duration @ .050" lift = 212
Intake duration @ .200" lift = 98.5*
Intake centerline of 104*
Intake Max Lift .254"
Exhaust duration @ .050" lift = 212.5*
Exhaust duration @ .200" lift = 104*
Exhaust centerline of 110*
Exhaust Max Lift .255"

COMPLETE CAM PROFILE BY LO206 STANDARD
Intake opening
.006----58* BTDC
.020----19.5* BTDC
.050----0 TDC
.100----17.5* ATDC
.150----34.5* ATDC
.200----55* ATDC
.225----68.5* ATDC
Max Lift .254"
Intake Closing
.225----38.5* BBDC
.200----26* BBDC
.175----15.5* BBDC
.150----6* BBDC
.100----11* ABDC
.050----28* ABDC
.020----46* ABDC
.006----83.5* ABDC

Exhaust opening
.006----96* BBDC
.020----58* BBDC
.050---- 38* BBDC
.100----20.5* BBDC
.150----4* BBDC
.200----16.5* ABDC
.225----30* ABDC
Max Lift .255"
Exhaust Closing
.225----72* BTDC
.200----59* BTDC
.175----48.5* BTDC
.150----39* BTDC
.100----22.5* BTDC
.050----5* BTDC
.020----12.5* ATDC
.006----52.5* ATDC


HEAD
JT94 Head
Head thickness 2.9125"
Combustion Chamber Depth .488"
Intake Seat Diameter .972" (Single 45* Angle)
Exhaust Seat Diameter .849" (Single 45* Angle)
Intake Port Horizontal Opening .906"
Intake Port Vertical Opening .916"
Intake Bowl Depth to lowest point of recessed valve guide .1.197
Exhaust Port Horizontal Opening .945"
Exhaust Port Vertical Opening .941"
Head gasket thickness .051 (Taken From inside Cylinder Hole area)

INTAKE VALVE TRAIN COMPONENTS
Intake Valve Head Diameter 27.06 MM (1.065")
Intake Valve Length 3.016"
Intake Valve Stem Diameter 5.5 MM
Intake Valve Weight 27.48 Grams
Aprox Intake Valve Margin .026"
Intake Valve Seal Flange Thickness .023"
Intake Rocker Arm Length 2.646"
Intake Rocker Arm Weight 37.72 Grams
Intake Pushrod Length 5.785"
Intake Pushrod Weight 14.69 Grams
Intake Pushrod Diameter .160"
Intake Lifter Head Diameter .928"
Intake Lifter Length 1.436"
Intake Lifter Weight 20.15 Grams

EXHAUST VALVE TRAIN COMPONENTS
Exhaust Valve Head Diameter 24.07 MM (.948")
Exhaust Valve Length 3.017"
Exhaust Valve Stem Diameter 5.4 MM
Exhaust Valve Weight 26.45 Grams
Aprox Exhaust Valve Margin .045"
No exhaust Valve Seal
Exhaust Rocker Arm length 2.6465"
Exhaust Rocker Arm Weight 37.43 Grams
Exhaust Pushrod Length 5.782"
Exhaust Pushrod Weight 14.53 Grams
Exhaust Pushrod Diameter .160"
Exhaust Lifter Head Diameter .928"
Exhaust Lifter Length 1.437"
Exhaust Lifter Weight 20.07 Grams

INTAKE VALVE SPRING AND COMPONENTS
Intake Valve Spring Length 1.210"
Intake Valve Spring Wire Diameter .098"
Intake Valve Spring O.D. .841"
Intake Valve Spring I.D. .640-.645 (Measured at each end)
Intake Valve Spring Retainer Flange Thickness .061"
Intake Valve Spring Retainer Weight 6.73 Grams
Intake Lash Cap Diameter .3135"
Intake Lash Cap Thickness .139"
Intake Lash Cap Weight 1.04 Grams

EXHAUST VALVE SPRING AND COMPONENTS
Exhaust Valve Spring Length 1.196"
Exhaust Valve Spring Wire Diameter .0985"
Exhaust Valve Spring O.D. .843"
Exhaust Valve Spring I.D. .640 - .646 (Measured at each end)
Exhaust Valve Spring Retainer Flange Thickness .0605 - .0615 (.010 from one side to the other)
Exhaust Valve Spring Retainer Weight 6.72 Grams
Exhaust Lash Cap Diameter .3135"
Exhaust Lash Cap Thickness .138"
Exhaust Lash Cap Weight 1.03 Grams

BORE 69.99 MM (2.755")
STROKE 2.171" (Stock stroke says 2.165")
CRANKSHAFT JOURNAL 1.79"
CAM LOBE BASE CIRCLE
Intake .867"
Exhaust .868"

PISTON ASSEMBLY
Piston assembly weight with rings 169.70 Grams
Piston Diameter @ bottom of piston skirt 2.755" (This don't seem like it should right but I measured it repeatedly)
Piston Length 1.8335"
Top of wrist pin hole to the top of the piston .575"
Wrist Pin Length 2.1475"
Outside Diameter of Wrist Pin .716"
Inside Diameter of wrist pin .552"
Wrist Pin Weight 44.37 Grams
Connecting Rod Weight 118.26 Grams
Top of crank journal rod hole to bottom of wrist pin hole in rod 2.362"

CARBURATOR (PZ22)
Intake Manifold Length 2.194"
Intake Manifold Flange Thickness .160
Intake Manifold I.D. @ Head Gasket Surface .08635"
Intake Manifold I.D @ Carb Gasket Surface .08635"
Venturi Horizontal Measurement @ Center of Carb Just Before Slide Area Taken From AirHorn Side .609"
Venturi Vertical Measurement Taken Just Before Slide Area From Manifold Mounting Side .765"
Venturi Horizontal Measurement Taken In Bottom Half Of Venturi Opening From Manifold Mounting Side .6125"
Vertical I.D. Measurement Of Air horn @ Transition Into Venturi 1.121"
Horizontal I.D. Measurement Of Air horn @ Transition Into Venturi 1.117"
Horizontal I.D. Of 1st Step On Manifold Side Of Carb .861"
Vertical I.D Of 1st Step On Manifold Side Of carb .861"
Idle Jet 42 (.0165")
Small Holes In Idle Jet .033"
Main Jet 85 ( .033")
Main Nozzle .102"
Emulsion Tube Length 1.046"
Emulsion Tube Diameter .196"
Emulsion Tube Pass Through Hole .111"
Small Holes In Emulsion Tube .021"
Air Pick Off Hole .097"
Venturi Idle Air Hole .109"
Venturi Idle Fuel Hole .039"
Carb Slide Cutaway .081"

Phenolic Spacer Thickness Measured @ Front And Back Mating Surfaces .294-.296

Edit to add to post.......
The valve stem tips have been reduced to 5 MM, like a non hemi. 5mm retainers will be needed.
Click to expand...
Let me repeat.......
 
laser3kw said:
I agree, Harbor Freight used the word "Kart" as a advertising tool.

Thank you (y)
:sneaky:
Click to expand...

Where I did say anything about Harbor Freight using the word kart as an advertising tool? So there's no agreement on anything.

Do you know the people behind the Ghost build or do you just see the word harbor freight? Have you discussed any of your opinions with the people behind the Ghost build? Or do you just see the word Harbor Freight? Do you know why the people behind the Ghost build sent their requirements for the Ghost build to their manufactures in China, or do you just see the words Harbor Freight? Do you know what they're doing on the west coast, right now, with the Ghost, or do you just see the word Harbor Freight?
 
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rebsfan4 said:
Do you know the people behind the Ghost build or do you just see the word harbor freight? Have you discussed any of your opinions with the people behind the Ghost build? Or do you just see the word Harbor Freight? Do you know why the people behind the Ghost build sent their requirements for the Ghost build to their manufactures in China, or do you just see the words Harbor Freight? Do you know what they're doing on the west coast, right now, with the Ghost, or do you just see the word Harbor Freight?
Click to expand...
rebsfan4 said:
leave it to a bunch naysaying idiots to completely throw a thread off course.
Click to expand...
When in Rome...
 
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