stagger on tires 11
- Thread starter mudzilla
- Start date
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
There is a way to calculate it. There are two sheets in my Excel spreadsheet for calculating stagger with a banked track. There are some that will tell you that a banked track needs more stagger, but it's not true.
One Fast Kat
Member
A better way to ask that question would include the track you are talking about running. Or get the spread sheets from Al to get a starting point.
There is no hard set rule for all high bank tracks.
How much bank, How sharp are the turns, dirt? type of kart all are important. Your kart MFG can be a good place to ask. Or others at the track you are running. Or the prep supplier. Local kart shop.
There is no hard set rule for all high bank tracks.
How much bank, How sharp are the turns, dirt? type of kart all are important. Your kart MFG can be a good place to ask. Or others at the track you are running. Or the prep supplier. Local kart shop.
racing promotor
Moderator
That all depends on the track size
paulkish
old fart
"There are some that will tell you that a banked track needs more stagger, but it's not true."
The above statement by Al is not true.
As you were advised by others it all depends.
In general the incorrect in both theory and application Al pushes is based on the idea that if the banking was 90 degrees you would need no stagger. That in itself is incorrect because even then you might use stagger to gain a racing advantage for passing.
The other thing which he blindly does not take into consideration is as banking increases the effects of gravity applying weight all by itself to the inside rear tire(LR) increases as banking increases.
A function of stagger which Al's incorrect calculations totally ignore is that as stagger increases it also increases your ability to slip either rear tire, because of the increased difference in surface speed between each rear tire, depending on your ability to control how much weight is placed on each tire while racing.
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Al has been banned many times on here because of the bull and incorrect bull he offers to beginners, experienced racers and sponsors of this site. He's also been banned from karting sites for the exact same reasons for over 20 years.
He offers fact with nothing to back it except incorrect calculations because the calculations he makes are the result of incomplete input.
The above statement by Al is not true.
As you were advised by others it all depends.
In general the incorrect in both theory and application Al pushes is based on the idea that if the banking was 90 degrees you would need no stagger. That in itself is incorrect because even then you might use stagger to gain a racing advantage for passing.
The other thing which he blindly does not take into consideration is as banking increases the effects of gravity applying weight all by itself to the inside rear tire(LR) increases as banking increases.
A function of stagger which Al's incorrect calculations totally ignore is that as stagger increases it also increases your ability to slip either rear tire, because of the increased difference in surface speed between each rear tire, depending on your ability to control how much weight is placed on each tire while racing.
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Al has been banned many times on here because of the bull and incorrect bull he offers to beginners, experienced racers and sponsors of this site. He's also been banned from karting sites for the exact same reasons for over 20 years.
He offers fact with nothing to back it except incorrect calculations because the calculations he makes are the result of incomplete input.
GeneticTireWorks
Member
how sketchy would that be? but if it was 90 degrees of banking with that would be the same as a straight away right? and stagger in a straight would cause drag? so stagger wouldn't make you faster? or am I looking at this wrong?
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Here's two pictures of tracks with identical turns, except for the banking. Same ID radius, same width but different banking. The banking is 45° on one track, the other is flat. The inner arcs are the paths of the tires, the spacing on both is 3.33' wide. I point to the difference in tire path lengths. Note that, not only are the lengths different, but the difference between the inner and outer track is smaller on the banked track. This is why you need less stagger on a banked track. Now I know you're not going to see any tracks with 45° of banking, it's only for illustration purposes. Some didn't understand the 90° banked turn.
Your premise would be correct if both tires were able to maintain equal traction at all times in the corner.
For simplicity, let's say equal weight will make equal traction.
With the center of gravity at the height it must be, that cannot happen.
G forces acting on the center of gravity, as well as the basic force of gravity forbid that possibility in either scenario.
For simplicity, let's say equal weight will make equal traction.
With the center of gravity at the height it must be, that cannot happen.
G forces acting on the center of gravity, as well as the basic force of gravity forbid that possibility in either scenario.
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To understand banking effect, tie a plumb bob to steering shaft.
Notice it hangs perpendicular to the flat floor.
G forces act perpendicular to the string of the plumb bob.
Now raise the right side of the chassis 6 inches. The plumb bob is now pointed more towards the left tires.
The g force still acts perpendicular to the string.
For 45 degrees, a kart with a 39 inch track would need about 24 inches under the right tires.
Notice it hangs perpendicular to the flat floor.
G forces act perpendicular to the string of the plumb bob.
Now raise the right side of the chassis 6 inches. The plumb bob is now pointed more towards the left tires.
The g force still acts perpendicular to the string.
For 45 degrees, a kart with a 39 inch track would need about 24 inches under the right tires.
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paulkish
old fart
Years ago I started on a seminar on my thoughts about how and why tires on a staggered solid axle need to be used.
My first visual aid would be led into by asking if all thought stagger was based on how a styrofoam coffee cup rolls.
What I planned on doing after discussion and debate about it was to take my coffee cup which had a heavy washer hidden under the lid and roll the coffee cup straight down an incline on the side of it's lid.
I figured that would be enough to prove how stagger is actually used depends on how you are able to weight your rear tires.
Yes more stagger generally offers more rotation and less stagger less.
But what actually happens and the fine tuning of it all depends on your ability to weight and cause grip at each rear tire at the right time.
Al, include the dynamics of gravity, lateral forces per speed and how the coefficient of friction at each tire per dynamic weight out and you will have something great for everyone.
My first visual aid would be led into by asking if all thought stagger was based on how a styrofoam coffee cup rolls.
What I planned on doing after discussion and debate about it was to take my coffee cup which had a heavy washer hidden under the lid and roll the coffee cup straight down an incline on the side of it's lid.
I figured that would be enough to prove how stagger is actually used depends on how you are able to weight your rear tires.
Yes more stagger generally offers more rotation and less stagger less.
But what actually happens and the fine tuning of it all depends on your ability to weight and cause grip at each rear tire at the right time.
Al, include the dynamics of gravity, lateral forces per speed and how the coefficient of friction at each tire per dynamic weight out and you will have something great for everyone.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Remember the expression "a picture is worth 1000 words" well, I seem to have found one exception to that. My picture still doesn't convey what I'm trying to say. It seems so clear to me, but apparently not to everybody else.
Chrisshaw49
Member
The bank doesn’t matter with stagger. It’s mainly the size of the track that will determine your stagger. Adjust your caster and camber for a bank track according to the type of cart you have and what your manufacturer recommends.
paulkish
old fart
Quickly reading your post this morning my one comment is I think what you wrote is absolutely true and accurate.
I wish I could sum it up as well with the thousands of words I have to write about just about anything.
thank you for your post
paul
I'll try a quick reply:
More or less stagger will result in more or less rotation help from the rear tires but the main thing a change in stagger does is effect grip.
poboyracer
Member
How would you adjust caster and camber from a track with no banking to one with a lot of banking?
paulkish
old fart
We had eccentrics on top of the king pin and I would turn the wheel the amount I thought it was being turned out on the track and turn the eccentric until I thought it looked like the bank of the track. ...
When the kart came in I would then feel the tire to see how it heated across it's surface.
right or wrong that's how I did it
But that was a long time ago before himes were on everything.
racing promotor
Moderator
You would increase camber on RF If you were spot on at 2.5 neg for flat track, for lot of banking you would go to Min of 2.75 neg to 3 neg, I would try camber first leaving caster alone see how it does, but If you would change you would increase say 7 & 10 was normal, increase to 10 & 13 don't forget these changes will affect other settings go back over those as well.
poboyracer
Member
Thanks for the replies.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Something strikes me a little strange! The reason for a lot of caster, (compared to a vehicle with a differential) on a Sprint kart, is to get the weight off the inside rear tire. The purpose being to prevent push. Knowing that, tell me the reason for extra, or any, castor on an LTO kart? Seems to me that lifting the inside rear wheel off the truck negates any reason for stagger.