Stagger

B

Bomber89

Member
How do I change stagger??? I know air pressure is one way but I’ve heard hot boxes and or a torch??? Any suggestions would be much appreciated👍
 
I try to keep things as simple as possible when it comes to stagger . Shrinking a tire is a pain , so I try to not to have to do that . Others will have their view on this , but this is what I try to do . I try to not buy so many tires . My right sides I try to keep as close to the same all the time , say 34 inches , then I have 2 left fronts to give me 1 1/4 ( 32 3/4 ) and one 1 1/2 ( 32 1/2 ) inches of stagger . The left rear is where I have the most tires for to change stagger , from 3/4 inches to 2 inches . I try to do this to keep things simple . Between race days , you have to try and maintain the air pressures , so your tires stay the same . Hope this helps you some , Good Luck !
 
I really appreciate all the help ill be doing some testing on old tires first and see how that goes, Thank you again!!!
 
I always wonder; why would you change the stagger at a given track? I can see there needing to be a difference between tracks, but not the same track. Maybe I'm missing something.
From my calculations and drawings, stagger should be a fixed adjustment for any given track. If you change the stagger to cure handling problemS, changing the stagger is just a mask covering up something else that is wrong!
It seems to me, I could be wrong, that each rear tire is rolling on a different radius turn. Stagger is used to compensate for that difference. It's just got to be better if both tires are rolling rather than having one sliding. That's what happens if your stagger is wrong.
Something I'd like to try; in a big parking lot, have someone push the kart, with you in and your hands off the steering wheel, from behind, and see what kind of radius you travel. I'm thinking this will give you a good idea of what radius turn your rear stagger is set for.
One of my spreadsheets does a reasonably good job of calculating stagger for any given turn radius. You need to know the radius of the turn and the rear tread width, center to center. You then adjust the LR circumference until the RR matches your tire circumference.
 
alvin l nunley said:
I always wonder; why would you change the stagger at a given track? I can see there needing to be a difference between tracks, but not the same track. Maybe I'm missing something.
From my calculations and drawings, stagger should be a fixed adjustment for any given track. If you change the stagger to cure handling problemS, changing the stagger is just a mask covering up something else that is wrong!
It seems to me, I could be wrong, that each rear tire is rolling on a different radius turn. Stagger is used to compensate for that difference. It's just got to be better if both tires are rolling rather than having one sliding. That's what happens if your stagger is wrong.
Something I'd like to try; in a big parking lot, have someone push the kart, with you in and your hands off the steering wheel, from behind, and see what kind of radius you travel. I'm thinking this will give you a good idea of what radius turn your rear stagger is set for.
One of my spreadsheets does a reasonably good job of calculating stagger for any given turn radius. You need to know the radius of the turn and the rear tread width, center to center. You then adjust the LR circumference until the RR matches your tire circumference.
Click to expand...
hmmm thats an interesting concept that makes sense. I'm just getting in to karts on big cars we always adjusted stagger, but never really thought of what we were actually doing mathematically.
 
bomber315 said:
hmmm thats an interesting concept that makes sense. I'm just getting in to karts on big cars we always adjusted stagger, but never really thought of what we were actually doing mathematically.
Click to expand...

bomber315, though interesting to you his input is flat out wrong and he won't quit pushing his incorrect idea about stagger. In fact he's been kicked off this board many time because of his causing problems with both new racers and sponsors. His arguments are just that arguments for his own fun and games no matter how many times many many folks on this site have explained things to him. He's an old time successful sprint racer of karts which turn both left and right and with nothing else better to do he constantly crams his even outdated sprint racing ideas about how things work on us. He has much knowledge to offer but tends to only push the same old same old bull on this left turn only dirt kart racing site.

The easiest way to debunk what he offered is to say yes it's totally true, but only if you race on a track which is a perfect oval.

He totally ignores function and how tires need to be used for the sake of mathematical bull arguing about stagger and gearing. In this case he's doing it again trying to cause argument between himself and anyone who will argue with him for his own fun and games. It's not about what your doing mathematically in either cars or karts, it's about how your changing function and how your tires will work with the track.

bomber315, have you ever raced on a perfectly round track?

Or even a track where the whole of both ends of the track corners were the same?

There's a lot of dirt oval karters out there and I'll ask if there is one who uses his calculations to set their stagger and then leaves it there only adjusting other things to get fast. And I'll ask them if any how do you measure the track which is normally not round to come up with your perfect calculated stagger? To have a mathematical out put for perfect stagger wouldn't you need a perfect way or even a correct way per needed input to gather numbers for input?
 
Bomber89 said:
How do I change stagger??? I know air pressure is one way but I’ve heard hot boxes and or a torch??? Any suggestions would be much appreciated👍
Click to expand...
To answer with a little more detail, the hot box or torch is to Heat the tire as a hot tire is easier to grow with air pressure, and shrink without any pressure, pull valve gut heat good with a torch place tire in a freezer for 30 min it will shrink more than just letting it cool on it's own, heat tire good with the torch pump air in until tire is 1.5 " bigger than you need it, let set for 30 min SOME will grow, some are tough may need more air and leave set longer, key is once you get them staggered as soon as tires are washed after a race purge the left sides of air and pump up the right sides to 10 to 12 lb and they will hold Stagger for you.
 
Just to add. I've seen tracks with long straightaways and tight radius turns, I've seen tracks with short straightaways and wide radius turns. A compromise would appear to be in order when setting stagger. Tight radius turns call for more stagger, but that stagger hurts you down the straight. This is when you have to compromise between the ideal stagger for the turns, and a rolling resistance down the straight's. Same with those tracks that have 2 different radius turns. A compromise would be called for.
 
alvin l nunley said:
Just to add. I've seen tracks with long straightaways and tight radius turns, I've seen tracks with short straightaways and wide radius turns. A compromise would appear to be in order when setting stagger. Tight radius turns call for more stagger, but that stagger hurts you down the straight. This is when you have to compromise between the ideal stagger for the turns, and a rolling resistance down the straight's. Same with those tracks that have 2 different radius turns. A compromise would be called for.
Click to expand...
In the end you'll always be faster setting stagger for the tightest turn, so is it really a compromise.
 
ditto on the above post.

Unless your weighting both rear tires equally as you would sprint racing, Increasing stagger will reduce drag on the straights weather on the straights your preloading the left rear for the next turn or loading and driving off the right rear.
 
alvin l nunley said:
Just to add. I've seen tracks with long straightaways and tight radius turns, I've seen tracks with short straightaways and wide radius turns. A compromise would appear to be in order when setting stagger. Tight radius turns call for more stagger, but that stagger hurts you down the straight. This is when you have to compromise between the ideal stagger for the turns, and a rolling resistance down the straight's. Same with those tracks that have 2 different radius turns. A compromise would be called for.
Click to expand...
So this could maybe be a time to try a different stagger at the same track? Totally contradicts your previous post, but we all been trying to tell you this for years.
 
paulkish said:
bomber315, though interesting to you his input is flat out wrong and he won't quit pushing his incorrect idea about stagger. In fact he's been kicked off this board many time because of his causing problems with both new racers and sponsors. His arguments are just that arguments for his own fun and games no matter how many times many many folks on this site have explained things to him. He's an old time successful sprint racer of karts which turn both left and right and with nothing else better to do he constantly crams his even outdated sprint racing ideas about how things work on us. He has much knowledge to offer but tends to only push the same old same old bull on this left turn only dirt kart racing site.

The easiest way to debunk what he offered is to say yes it's totally true, but only if you race on a track which is a perfect oval.

He totally ignores function and how tires need to be used for the sake of mathematical bull arguing about stagger and gearing. In this case he's doing it again trying to cause argument between himself and anyone who will argue with him for his own fun and games. It's not about what your doing mathematically in either cars or karts, it's about how your changing function and how your tires will work with the track.

bomber315, have you ever raced on a perfectly round track?

Or even a track where the whole of both ends of the track corners were the same?

There's a lot of dirt oval karters out there and I'll ask if there is one who uses his calculations to set their stagger and then leaves it there only adjusting other things to get fast. And I'll ask them if any how do you measure the track which is normally not round to come up with your perfect calculated stagger? To have a mathematical out put for perfect stagger wouldn't you need a perfect way or even a correct way per needed input to gather numbers for input?
Click to expand...
Yeah Al's really lost on the stagger issue, it's best you look over his stagger theories
 
Stagger is not about the radius of the track so much as it's about unloading the
LR. Different karts, setups and driving styles can change the unloading point no
matter what the radius of the turn.
A kart thru a turn is essentially a 3wheeled vehicle.
 
Any time you turn you unload the LR IMHO Bumpy your 100% correct about the unloading point.

I'm a little bit into Winged Sprint Cars where the wing is used to help control the unloading point, how much the LR is unloaded and also the reloading of the LR. I think always meaning i'm not ever sure about anything and I think with a kart it's no different.

With a limited hp kart you unload the LR per need and then use the unloaded weight hopefully balanced as needed on the right side. IMHO more and more even with Winged Sprint Cars fast is dependent on a balanced use of your right side tires. What I'm currently into on the cars if you can call many many years looking for a solution as current is creating an ability to delay unloading the LR.

Sprint cars as well as every oval solid axle staggered racer have the same problem. The basic problem of all is at the moment of turn in weight instantly moves right unloading the LR. How much you unload the LR is easier to manage. It's when the LR unloads and grip begins to be lost or you can say the LR begins to go away is what is tough to handle and what sets up your unloading or timing point.

IMHO a winged sprint car is the perfect oval race car with the exception of two problems. The first I tried to describe which is the instant unloading of the LR at the moment of turn in and the second is until the RF is functioning to turn at the end of the straight it creates insecurity within the driver. If your running at 150 mph at the end of the straight when the RF has no traction, it can be a bit taxing having faith the machine will turn left. ... :)

I hope this year to have a chassis able to partially correct one of the problems. If one of the problems can be partially corrected to the amount of a snap of the fingers, at 150mph I think it can create an advantage in both racing and lap times.
 
By the way and this is just food for fun thought not necessairly fact i'm also trying to learn about super lates. If anyone's interested I think I can compare the wing on a sprint car having the same function as the LR spring of a super late. The wing and the LR spring are both used during turning to push the LR tire into the track. The sprint uses aero to operate the LR into the track and a super late uses leveraging from pushing the RF into the track to operate the LR into the track. And a big maybe on that hoping someone who really understands will suggest i'm on the right thought path or explain the error of my thought on it. ... :)

sorry i'll stop hyjacking the thread.
 
paulkish said:
Any time you turn you unload the LR IMHO Bumpy your 100% correct about the unloading point.

I'm a little bit into Winged Sprint Cars where the wing is used to help control the unloading point, how much the LR is unloaded and also the reloading of the LR. I think always meaning i'm not ever sure about anything and I think with a kart it's no different.

With a limited hp kart you unload the LR per need and then use the unloaded weight hopefully balanced as needed on the right side. IMHO more and more even with Winged Sprint Cars fast is dependent on a balanced use of your right side tires. What I'm currently into on the cars if you can call many many years looking for a solution as current is creating an ability to delay unloading the LR.

Sprint cars as well as every oval solid axle staggered racer have the same problem. The basic problem of all is at the moment of turn in weight instantly moves right unloading the LR. How much you unload the LR is easier to manage. It's when the LR unloads and grip begins to be lost or you can say the LR begins to go away is what is tough to handle and what sets up your unloading or timing point.

IMHO a winged sprint car is the perfect oval race car with the exception of two problems. The first I tried to describe which is the instant unloading of the LR at the moment of turn in and the second is until the RF is functioning to turn at the end of the straight it creates insecurity within the driver. If your running at 150 mph at the end of the straight when the RF has no traction, it can be a bit taxing having faith the machine will turn left. ... :)

I hope this year to have a chassis able to partially correct one of the problems. If one of the problems can be partially corrected to the amount of a snap of the fingers, at 150mph I think it can create an advantage in both racing and lap times.
Click to expand...
O so many things different from a kart to a sprint car , as far as adjustments that can be made . You have a ton you can do on a sprint car , and limited on a kart .
 
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