STAGGER

jaymancds

Premium User
Thanks, kinda what i figured but wasnt sure, If you run a few different tracks you need a good amount of tires?
Not necessarily. You can race several track on 3 sets. A small set, a medium set, and a large set. Assuming there is no tire rules, 3 sets could get you close in most places.
 

GDR

Member
I’m glad to hear someone say that front stagger doesn’t do much.... I have always wondered the affect since they turn independently
 

jaymancds

Premium User
I’m glad to hear someone say that front stagger doesn’t do much.... I have always wondered the affect since they turn independently
I can send you resources to prove it to your buddies if you'd like.

I never thought about it that hard until I started looking in to racing Micro Sprints. Hyper Chassis has a link on their site that has the basics of vehicle dynamics. Obviously suspension isn't something we are worried about, but stagger is stagger.
 
The thing about front stagger (other than the obvious - affecting cross) is that it also changes the ride height (tilt & rake) of the chassis.
Be sure that the top guys in micros and full sized sprints are concerned about front stagger too. It's not something to totally dismiss even though the front tires are independent.


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
32 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 

paulkish

old fart
Put your kart on it's stand with the front tires hanging down then go around front, get down and look at how the right front hangs down lower then the left front.

Front stagger is a part of being able to use a big right front tire to turn etc., and part of the total preload on the right front, which is part of the cross you use be it high or low cross.

It all works together to allow you to use your tires for what you need to do with them all around the track.
You don't use anyone of your tires the same all around the track which causes you to make each one of them work the best at the most advantageous racing needed at each part of the track.

It's easy ain't it? ... :)

I'm going to guess Brian will agree that though winged sprints may hike the right front high up in the air on the straights, getting around the corner well is still usually about planting the right front tire into the track. ... anyway I hope he agree's?????
 

jaymancds

Premium User
The thing about front stagger (other than the obvious - affecting cross) is that it also changes the ride height (tilt & rake) of the chassis.
Be sure that the top guys in micros and full sized sprints are concerned about front stagger too. It's not something to totally dismiss even though the front tires are independent.


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
32 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
Absolutely agree. I'm not saying don't pay attention to it. I'm saying if your front stagger is off a 1/4" and your rear is off an 1/8", I'd work on the rear. It's definitely a tuning tool, but not as important as the rear IMO.
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
Absolutely agree. I'm not saying don't pay attention to it. I'm saying if your front stagger is off a 1/4" and your rear is off an 1/8", I'd work on the rear. It's definitely a tuning tool, but not as important as the rear IMO.
Shouldn't be any off of either end.
All the RS the same with different LRs
 

jaymancds

Premium User
What’s a good way
To shrink a tire
Get is warmed up to about 200* and then dunk in into a bucket of ice water. I've never done this, but thats how I'm told it works.
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
What’s a good way
To shrink a tire
Heat to 200 or better with the core out of the steem.
Before putting it in ice water squeeze just a little air out reinstall the core submerge until cool, about 10 15 minutes.
Rs to 34 inches works out where different rim widths and a little shrinking should get you all you need.
Keep tires that have been shrunk with little to no air when not in use,opposite for tires that have been stretched.
Stretching tires the same heating process but air them up until they are ¼ to ½ larger than what you need and shock them as well
 

kartboy63

Member
OK I got 1 more question, how do you achieve getting the left side smaller diameter than the right.? cut them? or put more air pressure in the right and put in the sun to expand them?
Thanks
Well it depends on how someone reads this, what Menace61 said is true to make a RIGHT side tire bigger, add air and always let the air out the LEFT side tires to keep them from growing, BUT you as a beginner asking, the right side tires come bigger than the lefts, don't try to run the same tires on both sides and adding air to make them bigger, I kinda read your post as you thought they were the same size and wanted to know how to make them bigger on the right or smaller on the left.
 

alvin l nunley

Premium User
The thing about front stagger (other than the obvious - affecting cross) is that it also changes the ride height (tilt & rake) of the chassis.
Be sure that the top guys in micros and full sized sprints are concerned about front stagger too. It's not something to totally dismiss even though the front tires are independent.


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
32 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
I wonder about that, front stagger.

1 1/2 inches is about normal, wouldn't you say? That makes the right-hand tire 1 1/2 inches bigger in circumference than the left side tire. That's about a 1/2 in diameter, 1/4 inch and radius. Is that significant?
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
Not necessarily. You can race several track on 3 sets. A small set, a medium set, and a large set. Assuming there is no tire rules, 3 sets could get you close in most places.
3 tires are always the same, the only one that changes is the LR
3 sets? soft, medium, hard
 

paulkish

old fart
3 tires are always the same, the only one that changes is the LR
3 sets? soft, medium, hard
Am I correct in saying you switch three the same for soft, medium, hard per overall track grip, and the LR change is to control how much turning you need from the back to put it between push and loose?
Adding to it a slick track will probably need more from the LR than a grip track?
Adding to it with another thought the LR "may" not only need adjusting for grip but also size, with a taller LR lending itself to slick?
All assuming your close to what's needed before track grip changes?

All questions because I ain't sure bout nothing.

I think being fast is about your thought process more than statistics. ?????
 

XXX#40

2A supporter
Am I correct in saying you switch three the same for soft, medium, hard per overall track grip, and the LR change is to control how much turning you need from the back to put it between push and loose?
Adding to it a slick track will probably need more from the LR than a grip track?
Adding to it with another thought the LR "may" not only need adjusting for grip but also size, with a taller LR lending itself to slick?
All assuming your close to what's needed before track grip changes?

All questions because I ain't sure bout nothing.

I think being fast is about your thought process more than statistics. ?????
For us Paul we have 5 sets (Burris 33 only rule)
Each set Rr,Rf,Lf all measure the same, only difference is the duro.
We have 15 LRs, 3 per set matching duros, this is the tire we adjust not only stagger, but how the kart reacts coming off the corner, too soft can cause a push, and too hard can cause a loose condition.
Most new karts are designed around using 3 tires equally, and no you don't have to run the same duro on each corner, most will run the lr same as the set, and adjust the kart.
My thought is to adjust the grip before chassis changes
 

paulkish

old fart
For us Paul we have 5 sets (Burris 33 only rule)
Each set Rr,Rf,Lf all measure the same, only difference is the duro.
We have 15 LRs, 3 per set matching duros, this is the tire we adjust not only stagger, but how the kart reacts coming off the corner, too soft can cause a push, and too hard can cause a loose condition.
Most new karts are designed around using 3 tires equally, and no you don't have to run the same duro on each corner, most will run the lr same as the set, and adjust the kart.
My thought is to adjust the grip before chassis changes
Thank you: All good stuff for my save folder and I think I see a thought process I like and hope I understand.
 

paulkish

old fart
I'm going to throw something in here only because it just now came to mind.

Old school dirt oval racing versus New school:

Old school thought process deals with NOT having aero input to put weight on the LR.
New school is here because the state of the art now includes being able to apply aero weight to the LR.

We race karts which are exclusively Old school.

The current state of the art for all of oval racing, because of karting and Bob's 4cycle.com spreading knowledge, is being able to bring controlled grip into the picture knowing where and how much grip each tire needs to use all around the track.

I think what post #36 offered adds for the first time a tire "baseline" to go along with much-debated mechanical and weight baselines.

IMHO, WOW we just had offered to us a "tire baseline". Maybe for a particular application but it is a baseline.
 
I wonder about that, front stagger.

1 1/2 inches is about normal, wouldn't you say? That makes the right-hand tire 1 1/2 inches bigger in circumference than the left side tire. That's about a 1/2 in diameter, 1/4 inch and radius. Is that significant?
It certainly can be, yes. Imagine raising or lowering one spindle with washers by 1/4"? Is that significant? I think so. Most chassis, that equates to 3 or 4 % cross. VERY significant. That 1/4" adjustment in ride height also affects tilt and rake in the chassis. Although less significant than the cross change, it still affects weight transfer. A lot of thought (and R&D/testing) goes into chassis manufacturing and specific ride heights at each corner. Jigs aren't cheap to build (or change.) If a chassis mfg'er wants their customers to run 1 1/2" on the front, I'm fairly sure there's a good reason for it. I know for a fact there is with our chassis.
 
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