Track Tac

Staggered tires

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KartingIMG

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Can someone explain to me a little bit about staggered tires? What should they be? Is there something else that determines what each tire is at? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
 
KartingIMG said:
Can someone explain to me a little bit about staggered tires? What should they be? Is there something else that determines what each tire is at? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
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In my opinion, and remember, few you agree with me, the proper stagger can be calculated. In my opinion, every track has a optimal stagger requirement. You can calculate that optimal stagger by measuring the radius of the turns and the length of the straights.
I'm including a picture of my stagger calculator (decimal) I also have a metric calculator.
50 foot track.jpg
 
Depends on the tire you are using and the track size.

Even at that the optimal number as al calls it is more like a baseline and you tune from there.
 
The only other thing I can think of . The setup sheet for our '98' Buller LTO .
Stated that changing it on different tires affected the chassis different .
Old technology now .
 
alvin l nunley said:
Other than the circumference of the tire, what else could make any difference? What do you mean by "track size"?
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Corner entry speed.
Width of contact patch.
Rubber compound of tire. Sidewall makeup of tire. Prep.
Weight supported by each tire at any point in the turn,
G force generated by track and tires.
Horsepower of engine driving kart.

All these things affect the amount of stagger needed at any point in the corner. There is only a short distance in any corner where stagger is correct because the traction produced by each tire on the axle is equal.

The "optimal" amount of stagger is dependent on these factors and others I am sure I have missed.

The best compromise yields the best lap time on a consistent basis.

The stopwatch will tell you if you have found the magical combination.
 
Al, I do not need to block people but Im not arguing nor discussing anything with you anymore. Very very rarely will you accept anything other than what you see as true which is all opinions.
 
Deadman#73 said:
Al, I do not need to block people but Im not arguing nor discussing anything with you anymore. Very very rarely will you accept anything other than what you see as true which is all opinions.
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The same applies to you, now you want to stop talking to somebody who disagrees with you. You have your opinions, I have mine, you don't agree with me, I don't agree with you. If you have a problem with that,, so be it.
 
KartingIMG said:
Can someone explain to me a little bit about staggered tires? What should they be? Is there something else that determines what each tire is at? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Your chassis builder will have recommendations for stagger based on track size. Someone local who knows your tracks and chassis may be an even better source of information.
Keep in mind, these are just baseline suggestions. You should give your kart/ setup what it needs to be successful. There is no magic bullet to simply slot in and be fast. Driver preferences can even be a major factor in what it takes to make your kart fast on your track.
Keep good notes. Be precise, and debrief with the driver after each race as to what you saw and what the driver felt. If you are the driver, someone filming you racing can be an invaluble tool.

Fyi, most chassis setups are based off having 34 inch circumference right side tires and adjusting the left sides to make front and rear stagger.
Whosever baseline you are using, you should try to match every detail they are giving you to have maximum success.
Good luck and remember to have fun.
 
I agree with Nunley. Tire circumference and turn radius can absolutely be used to calculate the correct rear stagger. I have myself walked out on tracks with the measuring wheel to get the radius of the turns for the equation. Two wheels locked to an axle, forced to turn at the same speed traveling different distances must be a finite size respectively to prevent one or the other from being dragged along or scrubbed. Granted, with the inside wheel on a kart unloading/lifting in the corner it may not be critical, especially on dirt, but Al is correct. So is Shaw. There is no single magic bullet-setup tweak that makes a machine fast, it's the whole package. And most important is to have FUN.
 
Allan said:
I agree with Nunley. Tire circumference and turn radius can absolutely be used to calculate the correct rear stagger. I have myself walked out on tracks with the measuring wheel to get the radius of the turns for the equation. Two wheels locked to an axle, forced to turn at the same speed traveling different distances must be a finite size respectively to prevent one or the other from being dragged along or scrubbed. Granted, with the inside wheel on a kart unloading/lifting in the corner it may not be critical, especially on dirt, but Al is correct. So is Shaw. There is no single magic bullet-setup tweak that makes a machine fast, it's the whole package. And most important is to have FUN.
Click to expand...

How do you find the turn radius with a. Measuring wheel? Is there a formula?
 
Allan said:
I agree with Nunley. Tire circumference and turn radius can absolutely be used to calculate the correct rear stagger. I have myself walked out on tracks with the measuring wheel to get the radius of the turns for the equation. Two wheels locked to an axle, forced to turn at the same speed traveling different distances must be a finite size respectively to prevent one or the other from being dragged along or scrubbed. Granted, with the inside wheel on a kart unloading/lifting in the corner it may not be critical, especially on dirt, but Al is correct. So is Shaw. There is no single magic bullet-setup tweak that makes a machine fast, it's the whole package. And most important is to have FUN.
Click to expand...
Would you care to go into complete detail on how you took the turn radius with your measuring wheel ?
 
Heres the problem with measuring turn radius, especially on a dirt track, the radius, on most tracks, change throughout the corner so there is never a "true" radius. Example, one of the best known tracks in the country, Carnesville, turn 3 is fairly gradual entry but coming through 4 it tightens up the radius a lot coming off, you have to take that into account.
Also most tracks you are very rarely ever in a straight line down the straights, which also effects things.
Type of kart and the way it was designed also plays a big role in stagger. At the biggest races in the country, the winners all may have differing staggers from 1 manufactured kart to another.
Find which stagger works the best for you at any particular track to make the most corner speed and you will be at the front.
 
SoCo Tire Treatments said:
Heres the problem with measuring turn radius, especially on a dirt track, the radius, on most tracks, change throughout the corner so there is never a "true" radius. Example, one of the best known tracks in the country, Carnesville, turn 3 is fairly gradual entry but coming through 4 it tightens up the radius a lot coming off, you have to take that into account.
Also most tracks you are very rarely ever in a straight line down the straights, which also effects things.
Type of kart and the way it was designed also plays a big role in stagger. At the biggest races in the country, the winners all may have differing staggers from 1 manufactured kart to another.
Find which stagger works the best for you at any particular track to make the most corner speed and you will be at the front.
Click to expand...
Thats too hard for the math guys to comprehend
 
racing promotor said:
Would you care to go into complete detail on how you took the turn radius with your measuring wheel ?
Click to expand...
There is a 180° change in direction at both ends the track. Measure across that 180° and you have the diameter. Simple math after that.

Now you're going to say "the actual path is not a true radius". Makes little difference when calculating stagger, some, but very little. You get as close as you can and that's enough. At least it's better than guessing!

Changing the stagger to compensate for a handling problem, seems to me, a Band-Aid. You're just masking the real problem. Or maybe, your stagger is wrong and if you change it, and the handling gets better, it's likely you're just getting closer to the right stagger. It's a possibility!
It's called tuning, and tuning is tough. (Al Nunley)
 
alvin l nunley said:
There is a 180° change in direction at both ends the track. Measure across that 180° and you have the diameter. Simple math after that.

Now you're going to say "the actual path is not a true radius". Makes little difference when calculating stagger, some, but very little. You get as close as you can and that's enough. At least it's better than guessing!

Changing the stagger to compensate for a handling problem, seems to me, a Band-Aid. You're just masking the real problem. Or maybe, your stagger is wrong and if you change it, and the handling gets better, it's likely you're just getting closer to the right stagger. It's a possibility!
It's called tuning, and tuning is tough. (Al Nunley)
Click to expand...
So , guess close enough cause it may not be absolutely correct. Tune from there.

Sounds like exactly what chassis builders would tell you.
And, most on this forum.

All the calculations were ever ntended for was to show how stagger works.
Understanding how it works allows you to tune according to conditions.
 
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