Temperature pressure correlation and link.

B

Blacksheep-1

Member
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From Samir Abid..


https://academy.yourdatadriven.com/pages/master-your-tyres
 
The real shame is that you get kids out of karting, including dirt karting, that have some real talent, and since they are totally ignorant of any usable vehicle dynamics, they just die on the vine.
But thanks for your input.
 
Blacksheep-1 said:
The real shame is that you get kids out of karting, including dirt karting, that have some real talent, and since they are totally ignorant of any usable vehicle dynamics, they just die on the vine.
But thanks for your input.
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What an ignorant thing to suggest.
Take a look at the background of some of the current stars at the very highest levels of racing: F1, Indy, Nascar, WoO. I dare say that many/most of them came from the ranks of karting.

You've got some good information on tire temps and pressures there, just make it applicable to kart tires and the pressure gains that are seen in our realm. You've got karting experience yourself, gather some data and share it!


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
www.youtube.com
35 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
 
CarlsonMotorsports said:
What an ignorant thing to suggest.
Take a look at the background of some of the current stars at the very highest levels of racing: F1, Indy, Nascar, WoO. I dare say that many/most of them came from the ranks of karting.

You've got some good information on tire temps and pressures there, just make it applicable to kart tires and the pressure gains that are seen in our realm. You've got karting experience yourself, gather some data and share it!


-----
🏁Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
www.youtube.com
35 years of service to the karting industry ~ 1Cor 9:24
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
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The reason they die on the vine is thay have no idea of vehicle dynamics.
The last race I won was around 2020 at BMP in the rain, so I have current info of value, which is why I've solicited such.
 
Blacksheep-1 said:
The reason they die on the vine is thay have no idea of vehicle dynamics.
The last race I won was around 2020 at BMP in the rain, so I have current info of value, which is why I've solicited such.
Click to expand...
Evidently no one is willing to teach them then. Most that get out of karting and go back to it is because the funds are not there for big cars. There are many karters that may be the next best thing if they got a chance but if your pockets aren't deep enough you will get nowhere. The facts of life of racing in its finest.
 
Blacksheep-1 said:
View attachment 34976

From Samir Abid..


https://academy.yourdatadriven.com/pages/master-your-tyres
Click to expand...

Am I correct about the graph when I say it's telling us tires will hold their ability to do what ever the graph represents more constant at lower operating temps then higher operating temps?

Balance for oval racing is being able to control your direction of travel in ways which have the least impact on maintaining your amount of turning over the use of your rear tires for acceleration. Simply put because total grip is limited the less you need to fight the axle accelerating in the direction it wants to head the faster you can go.

IMHO the graph if correct points out how one variable of needed grip, if how ever they came by it and it's correct, changes with tire operating temperature. Interesting but if your any good at setup it's just one of many things which automatically enter into your decision making process.
 
All you did was post a graph with no explanation or anything, in a usability region outside of what anybody here is using... hardly helpful. If they really want to know vehicle dynamics, they can go read Paul Van Valkenburg's classic book on the matter, and I hope they read all of Carroll Smith's library too, some of which will be immediately applicable, some only for big cars. The real value of this graph, or one like it in our operating parameters, would be to know total PSI gain per temperature gain -- factors that both affect tread compliance -- and a slip angle vs. operating temp and slip angle vs. grip (friction) chart. Also, your chart has metric units on the right, but doesn't say if the units on the left are metric or American (F° vs C°) and the link is basically an advertisement for your coaching services, and thus this is a "business ad" that isn't in the proper section. This forum is largely about sharing information for FREE. While I don't begrudge anyone from selling their expertise, I do consider their level of transparency and honesty when deciding whether to avail myself of their services (or recommending others to them.) You should bear in mind that this is a DIRT OVAL BOARD (with a pocket of asphalt sprint and long-course) so your target audience may perhaps be different? Are you a skilled oval racer?
 
Blacksheep-1 said:
The reason they die on the vine is thay have no idea of vehicle dynamics.
The last race I won was around 2020 at BMP in the rain, so I have current info of value, which is why I've solicited such.
Click to expand...
The winningest sprint car driver of all time, "the King" Steve Kinser, knew little about vehicle dynamics the entire time he raced and won over 500 features at arguably the highest level of dirt oval racing. He had a fantastic crew chief(s), however, that understood more about vehicle dynamics than I ever will.
Many F1 & Indy car drivers will admit that some of the adjustments are above their pay-grade and they leave car set-up to the engineers.
Even Cole Trickle knew nothing about car set-up and was successful. :)

Like someone else mentioned, I think the reason some "die on the vine" has more to do with lack of funding/connections to get them to the next level, than a proper understanding of vehicle dynamics.
 
Ted Hamilton said:
All you did was post a graph with no explanation or anything, in a usability region outside of what anybody here is using... hardly helpful. If they really want to know vehicle dynamics, they can go read Paul Van Valkenburg's classic book on the matter, and I hope they read all of Carroll Smith's library too, some of which will be immediately applicable, some only for big cars. The real value of this graph, or one like it in our operating parameters, would be to know total PSI gain per temperature gain -- factors that both affect tread compliance -- and a slip angle vs. operating temp and slip angle vs. grip (friction) chart. Also, your chart has metric units on the right, but doesn't say if the units on the left are metric or American (F° vs C°) and the link is basically an advertisement for your coaching services, and thus this is a "business ad" that isn't in the proper section. This forum is largely about sharing information for FREE. While I don't begrudge anyone from selling their expertise, I do consider their level of transparency and honesty when deciding whether to avail myself of their services (or recommending others to them.) You should bear in mind that this is a DIRT OVAL BOARD (with a pocket of asphalt sprint and long-course) so your target audience may perhaps be different? Are you a skilled oval racer?
Click to expand...
I'm not selling ANYTHING, I don't make a dime from my efforts. The cover page for Tire Guy Mafia says it all.
 
Perhaps your link in the first post should point to your FREE information at Tire Guy Mafia instead of your paid coaching site, then....
I'm a fan of anyone helping others into the sport....so long as they're really helping. Carry on...
 
Blacksheep-1 said:
The cover page for Tire Guy Mafia says it all
Click to expand...
What is tire guy mafia?

nevermind. see next post below and thanks again



How about putting a link to it so we can see what says it all?

If it's there in your posts somewhere I can't find it and thanks in advance for the help.
 
I found the link and scrolled down to where it had a click me to go to discussion group.

I also saw the tire temp/press tool posted for others.

As always most things lead me to more questions and here where it took me.

The temp/press tool was cut and dry but I'm not so here's what it got me wondering about.
If tire temps are increasing then because of the increase the air temps within the tire are never constant.
When ever you take a temp or look at it unless the tire magically enters into a new constant realm of existence at a higher or lower temp, since the temp is changing what ever temp you take is not accurate.
Also the air in the tire is not magically heated evenly at all places and temp/pressure change at a constant volume is instantaneous where ever it occurs, it has to be fact that air pressure changes differently at various places in the tire.
And then the rotating mass of air in the tire is also constantly moving and mixing.
... I'm thinking the above leads to air pressure changes in the tire happening at specific areas first then other places inside the tire next and so on.
question:
Does where and how the air pressure changes within the tire effect performance?
I think it has to effect how the tire operates and interacts with the track.
 
Paul, temp is essentially equally distributed within the "air" in the tire, but NOT on the tread surface because of the rate at which thermal transfer can occur through either. Sprint racers use magnesium rims to combat temp buildup, but use aluminum rims in the rain when they want to retain some heat.
If you're cooking the parts of the tread you're using, then performance falls off. The goal is generally to have the tire heat evenly, and a thermal camera RIGHT WHEN YOU PULL OFF can show if the tire is working well (even temps) or not (has hot spots). Since the only way we can really control tread shape on track is with pressure, adjusting pressure to get a better profile is done. Use of nitrogen, as it has less moisture content, helps prevent pressure gain due to heat. Larger tires can benefit from automatic bleeders... Kart mfr.'s often try a low-volume rim to prevent pressure gain also.
 
Tire air pressure has nothing at all to do with the volume of air in the tire which means low volume rims have nothing at all to do with a gain or loss of air pressure because of a change in the volume of air held in the tire.
 
The ONLY thing an increase or decrease in air pressure does is change the pounds per square inch applied to what ever is available to the pressure of the air. That's it that's all it does.

Your totally confusing what is effected by air pressure, what changes air pressure and why resulting results occur.
 
Ted Hamilton said:
Paul, temp is essentially equally distributed within the "air" in the tire,
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I'm questioning.
Yes it eventually for all practical purposes levels off because of forces acting on the air itself.
But also for practical purposes It may be valuable to know the root source and path of the increase of heat and its change on air pressure.
Knowing that may be the key to the "WHY" of why changing air volume via rims etc., works.
... simple stuff and the obvious is almost NEVER simple.
Easy yes once you figure out the root and the easy of it.
 

Blacksheep-1 seems to be heavy into this per his words on here and what appears to be his web offering of tire help.​

I hope he's really into it and can comment further because this is all IMHO and ain't necessairly right anyway.

Or maybe his mind and abilities are just take notes and do this to do that without a need of understanding. and ????

As always my goal on here is to bear my heart and soul about what I think about how stuff works hoping someone will tell me I'm full of it, Explain why and I'll learn something from it.

Yeah I know dumb needs to be told and told again their wrong before I change my look at stuff. ... :)
 
Just read thru my posts on this thread and WOW are they fantastic, thought provoking and accurate. ... :)

the last gratifying sentence made me look back to when online holdem poker was played world wide without USA government involvement and control of what it's citizens did on the internet.

Way back then I was a little over 11,000 in my online poker standings on the web.
11,000 in standing, what you ask ??? That's under 12,000 in the World. I don't think it was all that bad?
Even flat our won a freeroll tournament with 10,000 starting players. ... :)

... yeah, just useless bs, I know butt ... ????
 
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