Box Stock

The Clone head problem

I'm not sure it is all the builders fault.

The racer is responsible to be sure he can pass tech.
If you raced it for a year, you have already benefited from any performance gain.
If the rule, or tech method changed, and is public knowledge, it's the racers responsibility.
In my opinion.

Ps

If the changes had been a performance benefit, you would most likely had it fixed.
 
95 shaw said:
I'm not sure it is all the builders fault.

The racer is responsible to be sure he can pass tech.
If you raced it for a year, you have already benefited from any performance gain.
If the rule, or tech method changed, and is public knowledge, it's the racers responsibility.
In my opinion.
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How does a racer know if his motor is legal or not. There is a reason someone has a builder and it is because they are supposed to build the fastest legal motor. Yes people know some engine builders' heads were illegal but no one knew exactly if theres was or not. In my opinion it should have been vwerified by the racer and builder that that motor is legal. I would have called and made sure it will pass tech or send that motor to him and tell him to make sure it is illegal.
 
That's the very meaning behind the post. It's the racers responsibility once a rule changes to send the engine back to the builder to verify that it's legal. There is no mention that he done this procedure to verify. So it's as much his fault as it is the builders.
 
95 shaw said:
I'm not sure it is all the builders fault.

The racer is responsible to be sure he can pass tech.
If you raced it for a year, you have already benefited from any performance gain.
If the rule, or tech method changed, and is public knowledge, it's the racers responsibility.
In my opinion.

Ps

If the changes had been a performance benefit, you would most likely had it fixed.
Click to expand...
really?? To me the idea of paying a top builder is to get all his hard work in finessing the most HP out of these Motors LEGALY. I'm perfectly capable of buying a ducar clone and cheating the crap out of it in hopes of no one ever opening it up. it would certainly save me money. The limited I just purchased from Welch was built under two promises 1 that he would build it personally and 2 he would be in the tech barn if the motor was gone through.
the only reason I can think of why a motor was cheated was because I told the builder to do it or I did it myself.
I'm supposed to routinely call to see if and when my motor is legal??
 
Yes, you are obligated to do so when the rules change or in this case are clarified further. That's racing......
 
"J'-remy said:
rule didn't change they developed a tool to catch an overlooked cheat.
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The post before your first was from February. Its September now.

Sufficient time has elapsed since the use of the tool to check was publicized.

All liability at this point is on the racer for not getting this checked.
Early posts suggested running until you get caught, then fix it.
You've made it to that point.
And got caught as a cheater.
I see no remorse, or concern for the racers you used this engine against.
Quit crying and move on.
 
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95 shaw said:
The post before your first was from February. Its September now.

Sufficient time has elapsed since the use of the tool to check was publicized.

All liability at this point is on the racer for not getting this checked.
Early posts suggested running until you get caught, then fix it.
You've made it to that point.
And got caught as a cheater.
I see no remorse, or concern for the racers you used this engine against.
Quit crying and move on.
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I didn't get caught. motor was being rebuilt by another builder. not crying either. the point of my post was to inform others to the possibility of loosing a race in the tech barn and to get the part corrected as it was never clear which builder was doing what. I want to win on my merits not a cheated part. there wasn't 10 builders out there who didn't know the difference between a 60 degree angle and a 70. this was clearly a "bob" just got away with it so ill do it to senario as it was obvious the builders found it before the techs/officials did. just goes to show how much these builders look at each other work
I do regret buying from this builder. they were expensive compared to most. and how am I the cheater when I didn't know or ask for it? I would have been remorseful if I was caught with a cheated motor and people thought/labeled me a cheater. that crap doesn't jive with who I am.
 
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You knew it was a possibility, so therefore you hoped and prayed it wasn't in your engine instead of sending it back. It was a clarification on a rule. Therefore you should have sent then engine back as soon as humanly possible, or had it teched outside of a race to insure that it met the rules.

You know most tech guys when a rule is clarified they will tech the engine for you to be safe. Some do it at a cost and some will do it for the well being of the sport. You chose not to pursue other alternatives.
 
I get that the small point you're making it shouldn't have been illegal to begin with when you purchased it. But, there is still the obligation after it comes to light that there are engine builders skirting the rule to insure that your engine isn't one of them. You simply chose not to have it addressed. You should have called the engine builder and asked if this was a practice he was doing and quietly or not sent the engine back to have him fix it free of charge. If he said otherwise then you could have clearly made a larger issue about it. But, you make no mention of that, or any indication you attempted to have the engine checked to insure legality.
 
to send it to the builder and get it back your looking at $100+ in shipping don't understand the idea of free of charge in this business.

Chime in if you've heard this from your builder $500 for a rebuild but this time it was $700 because it needed some extra stuff. needed something extra? for $200? I can buy a replacement everything for $135 (brand new ducar).

don't know if he would have fixed the issue in a rebuild or not but apparently that was not the only issue in this motor as I was assured the head would have failed a cc test as well.

I have had a builder ask me "how in depth do they tech because I can do a couple of things" I understand that and can tell the builder 'No thanks' or 'yes please'. builders should be a little more up front about anything that may be in the grey area. what's done is done and the motor is being corrected but I will not use that builder again.
builder can call people especially before the grace period ends to let his customers know. funny that's never mentioned.
 
J'-remy said:
they don't tech animals or they don't cheat animals? I fine either hard to believe. or do you just race RWYB?
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I have animals that are 6 years old and will pass tech because unlike the clown engines the rules haven't changed. The rules change for clown engines almost every year. How the heck are you supposed to keep up? Oh wait, i know...$$$$$$ and then some more $$$$. Affordable? yeah right!
 
Good luck getting parts for that animal in the near future. Oh ya, when you do let us know what the cost is
 
Just like the flathead was phased out with the clone. Looks like the clone is slowly being phased out by the predator. I have flatheads that are anywhere from 5-15 years old on their builds and will still pass tech and run up front. As the rules change the price keeps going up on builds and rebuilds of clones just like it did in the flathead days. As regards to the engine not passing tech I can see both sides of the argument but in hindsight it is your responsibility to ensure your engine is 100% legal. Just be glad that it was found at an engine builders shop than in the tech barn at a money race.
 
J'-remy said:
to send it to the builder and get it back your looking at $100+ in shipping don't understand the idea of free of charge in this business.

Chime in if you've heard this from your builder $500 for a rebuild but this time it was $700 because it needed some extra stuff. needed something extra? for $200? I can buy a replacement everything for $135 (brand new ducar).

don't know if he would have fixed the issue in a rebuild or not but apparently that was not the only issue in this motor as I was assured the head would have failed a cc test as well.

I have had a builder ask me "how in depth do they tech because I can do a couple of things" I understand that and can tell the builder 'No thanks' or 'yes please'. builders should be a little more up front about anything that may be in the grey area. what's done is done and the motor is being corrected but I will not use that builder again.
builder can call people especially before the grace period ends to let his customers know. funny that's never mentioned.
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Any builder who asks ""how in depth do they tech because I can do a couple of things" is not a reputable builder by any stretch.
 
Menace61 said:
Any builder who asks ""how in depth do they tech because I can do a couple of things" is not a reputable builder by any stretch.
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at least they're honest about it how many engines were cheated up unbeknownst to the racer? seems like quite a few
 
Menace61 said:
I have animals that are 6 years old and will pass tech because unlike the clown engines the rules haven't changed. The rules change for clown engines almost every year. How the heck are you supposed to keep up? Oh wait, i know...$$$$$$ and then some more $$$$. Affordable? yeah right!
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AGAIN the rule didn't change why is this so hard for some people to get in their stubborn heads???

the more I look at the animal the more pathetic it is. that exhaust next to the spark plug? really? plus the stupid thing can't get oil out of its own head. it too is made in some foreign country and assembled here for nearly 4 times the price of a clone. Miller wants nearly same price for a clone as a prepared L206. get your facts straight
 
Colt sr said:
Just like the flathead was phased out with the clone. Looks like the clone is slowly being phased out by the predator. I have flatheads that are anywhere from 5-15 years old on their builds and will still pass tech and run up front. As the rules change the price keeps going up on builds and rebuilds of clones just like it did in the flathead days. As regards to the engine not passing tech I can see both sides of the argument but in hindsight it is your responsibility to ensure your engine is 100% legal. Just be glad that it was found at an engine builders shop than in the tech barn at a money race.
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still trying to figure out how a builder cheating a motor the customer didn't ask for is the customers fault.
unless everyone making this claim is a builder.;)
 
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